5 facts behind America's high incarceration rate

It's my favorite little selfish bastard that think laws should be based on his personal choices and determines whether or not they're bad because of what he wants to do.

There's alot of things I think should be legal that I would never take part in myself. It's not about my personal choice, I do what I want anyway, it's about fostering a country that actually lives up to it's name as a "free country" for once. A country where everything is either regulated, taxed, or banned and has the most prisoners per capita in the world, more than even the most totalitarian states on our planet, is not a free country. I am a patriot. I think it's an insult to the red, white, and blue that we have completely ignored our founding fathers and documents.

How can you claim someone has broken the law if they haven't been convicted of it in a court of law? How many of those you say break laws have been tried? The guy in Idaho that people witnessed stabbing and ultimately killing a 3 year old is considered a "suspect".

First of all, I think you're completely missing the point here. The point is we can't expect people not to break any laws when there's so many it's hard to tell when you are.

Second of all, you don't have to actually be convicted to go to jail. Excessive bail is a very real problem, as are slow trials. Innocent people often sit in jail for months, even years, because our justice system is so backed up with bullshit it doesn't have the resources to provide the speedy trial guaranteed by our constitution.
 
There's alot of things I think should be legal that I would never take part in myself. It's not about my personal choice, I do what I want anyway, it's about fostering a country that actually lives up to it's name as a "free country" for once. A country where everything is either regulated, taxed, or banned and has the most prisoners per capita in the world, more than even the most totalitarian states on our planet, is not a free country.



First of all, I think you're completely missing the point here. The point is we can't expect people not to break any laws when there's so many it's hard to tell when you are.

Second of all, you don't have to actually be convicted to go to jail. Excessive bail is a very real problem, as are slow trials. Innocent people often sit in jail for months, even years, because our justice system is so backed up with bullshit it doesn't have the resources to provide the speedy trial guaranteed by our constitution.

It is about your personal choice. You specifically mentioned drugs and how you think such laws are wrong. Are you claiming that has anything to do with something other than your personal desire to do them? If so, you're a fucking liar.

Your statement was that people commit crimes every day. When have all of them been convicted?

There you go again thinking you are the one that determines excessive and speedy. Still on that it has to suit you or it's not being done correctly mindset, huh? Because YOU don't like something doesn't make it wrong but that's the spoiled brat viewpoint people like you tend to have.
 
It is about your personal choice. You specifically mentioned drugs and how you think such laws are wrong. Are you claiming that has anything to do with something other than your personal desire to do them? If so, you're a fucking liar.

Dude, you're delusional. Look at my original post. Nowhere did I mention drugs, that was completely an assumption on your part. Later I added that weed is only a very small sliver of what I'm talking about because it became clear you were getting hung up on past debates of ours. As you still are. My original post was speaking in a general sense, not on anything specific. Quote me. :fu:

Your statement was that people commit crimes every day. When have all of them been convicted?

Read what I type, brother. Read. Or we're done here.

There you go again thinking you are the one that determines excessive and speedy. Still on that it has to suit you or it's not being done correctly mindset, huh?

Waiting on a trial for years is not speedy. Subjectively or objectively.
 
There's alot of things I think should be legal that I would never take part in myself. It's not about my personal choice, I do what I want anyway, it's about fostering a country that actually lives up to it's name as a "free country" for once. A country where everything is either regulated, taxed, or banned and has the most prisoners per capita in the world, more than even the most totalitarian states on our planet, is not a free country. I am a patriot. I think it's an insult to the red, white, and blue that we have completely ignored our founding fathers and documents.

Many, many years ago I was appalled when my best friend in nursing school announced one day "You Americans talk about being free so much. You are not free. Look at all these laws you have. Don't do this, don't do that. In Ukraine we were far more free than you." It pissed me off to hear this, but after pondering it for many years I realize that she was right.
 
Dude, you're delusional. Look at my original post. Nowhere did I mention drugs, that was completely an assumption on your part. Later I added that weed is only a very small sliver of what I'm talking about because it became clear you were getting hung up on past debates of ours. As you still are. My original post was speaking in a general sense, not on anything specific. Quote me. :fu:



Read what I type, brother. Read. Or we're done here.



Waiting on a trial for years is not speedy. Subjectively or objectively.

Are you claiming you weren't calling laws against drug use stupid shit? That's the only way you can make such a statement.

Still waiting on your proof, using convictions as the backup, that people commit crimes every day.

So sad that you'll run like a little bitch when someone doesn't agree with you. Typical spoiled brat and proof of what I've said about you. Perhaps smoking all that weed made you a fucking coward, too.

Your opinion about speedy is just that. Stop claiming it's a fact because of what YOU believe.
 
Many, many years ago I was appalled when my best friend in nursing school announced one day "You Americans talk about being free so much. You are not free. Look at all these laws you have. Don't do this, don't do that. In Ukraine we were far more free than you." It pissed me off to hear this, but after pondering it for many years I realize that she was right.

Exactly. It is not unpatriotic to question the state of your country. On the contrary, it is the highest form of patriotism to want to see your country prosper in the values it's supposed to represent rather than mindlessly defending mere lip service to them.
 
Exactly. It is not unpatriotic to question the state of your country. On the contrary, it is the highest form of patriotism to want to see your country prosper in the values it's supposed to represent rather than mindlessly defending mere lip service to them.

Kudos. I think of patriotism as parenting. We want our kids to grow up to be the best, just like we want our country to be the best. If someone criticizes one of my kids my first reaction is anger.... at the messenger. I had to learn to quell that and think about what was said. Often it resulted in me taking some corrective action regarding the child's behavior. Even though they are adults now, and I carefully craft my "criticism," if one of them appears to be making a poor choice I'm fine with pointing it out. They know that I love them, and that I'm honest, so they hardly ever take offense. Far too many of us get outraged when someone points out a poor choice that America is making, rather than thinking about it first.
 
Are you claiming you weren't calling laws against drug use stupid shit? That's the only way you can make such a statement.

Laws against drug use is part of it. But only one part. Nanny state laws in general are stupid shit. Wear a helmet when you ride a bike, wear a seatbelt, don't get this type of gun or this size magazine clip, don't get this size of fucking soda, don't gamble your own money, don't buy raw milk, get a license before you cut hair or whatever, etc. Treating adults like children is the problem. It bogs up our justice system, it wastes our law enforcement's time, and it wastes money. We should stick with don't hurt people, and don't take their stuff. Period. Using the law to protect people from themselves is ridiculous. And frankly, it's spitting on your own supposedly "conservative" values to support this crap.

Still waiting on your proof, using convictions as the backup, that people commit crimes every day.

Still waiting for you to admit you don't need to be convicted to rot in a cell.

So sad that you'll run like a little bitch when someone doesn't agree with you. Typical spoiled brat and proof of what I've said about you. Perhaps smoking all that weed made you a fucking coward, too.

I have little tolerance for personal attacks, evasions, deflect, and routine ignoring of my arguments these days. In the past I have wasted nearly entire days repeating myself over and over only for you to deflect and personally attack me. If you would like to foster a civil, intelligent debate on this issue I am more than happy to stick around so we can do so. But if you're going to act like you have in the past, yes I will stop responding. And you can call me what you will for that. But it is your choice if we continue this or not. Bear that in mind.

Your opinion about speedy is just that. Stop claiming it's a fact because of what YOU believe.

Well put yourself in somebody else's shoes for once in your life. If it were you sitting in jail for years waiting on a trial for something you didn't do, would you consider that speedy? It ruins lives. After years in jail, your significant other tends to leave you. Your job tends to fire you. You can't pay rent or mortgage, so you lose the place you live. Your friends move on. Not to mention you lose entire years of your already short life you can't get back. Years is not "speedy" in any sense of that word and you know it. The amendment to our constitution which guarantees a speedy trial was written to protect citizens from this. Innocent people should not be behind bars at all, much less for years without even so much of a chance to try and prove their innocence. The stupid bullshit laws you support are the cause for this.
 
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Laws against drug use is part of it. But only one part. Nanny state laws in general are stupid shit. Wear a helmet when you ride a bike, wear a seatbelt, don't get this type of gun or this size magazine clip, don't get this size of fucking soda, don't gamble your own money, don't buy raw milk, get a license before you cut hair or whatever, etc. Treating adults like children is the problem. It bogs up our justice system, it wastes our law enforcement's time, and it wastes money. We should stick with don't hurt people, and don't take their stuff. Period. Using the law to protect people from themselves is ridiculous. And frankly, it's spitting on your own supposedly "conservative" values to support this crap.



Still waiting for you to admit you don't need to be convicted to rot in a cell.



I have little tolerance for personal attacks, evasions, deflect, and routine ignoring of my arguments these days. In the past I have wasted nearly entire days repeating myself over and over only for you to deflect and personally attack me. If you would like to foster a civil, intelligent debate on this issue I am more than happy to stick around so we can do so. But if you're going to act like you have in the past, yes I will stop responding. And you can call me what you will for that. But it is your choice if we continue this or not. Bear that in mind.



Well put yourself in somebody else's shoes for once in your life. If it were you sitting in jail for years waiting on a trial for something you didn't do, would you consider that speedy? It ruins lives. After years in jail, your significant others tend to leave you. Your job tends to fire you. You can't pay rent or mortgage, so you lose the place you live. Your friends move on. Not to mention you lose entire years of your already short life you can't get back. Innocent people should not be behind bars at all, much less for years without even so much of a chance to try and prove their innocence. The stupid bullshit laws you support are the cause for this.

In other words, my statement was correct. Thanks for admitting your determination of stupidity is based on whether or not you like it rather than what it is.

I don't support laws about wearing helmets, wearing a seatbelt, what size magazine you buy for your gun, whether or not you gamble, what size soda you can buy, etc. Assuming I do proves you've smoke some bad shit.

Don't try to move away from your claim that people commit crimes despite no convictions.

You're the one that said "we're through" based on me not agreeing with what you said. That's called running like a little bitch with a spoiled brat attitude. Either I have to agree or you'll take your ball and go home.

When you talk about people being guilty of committing crimes every day without a trial having taken place then complain about people sitting in jail for something they say they didn't do, you weaken your argument. Without a conviction of what you say people do, how do you know they've broken the law?

I don't get to define speedy and neither do you. If you've been in that situation, take it to court and complain that your rights weren't followed.

Innocent people shouldn't be behind bars. However, not everyone that claims they are innocent are innocent. Plenty of people in jail that did exactly what they were convicted of doing make that claim. Should we let them go?
 
In other words, my statement was correct. Thanks for admitting your determination of stupidity is based on whether or not you like it rather than what it is.

My determination of stupidity is if it's protecting people from themselves rather than others. For example, I don't gamble. It's a racket and I think it's an activity for fools. Alot of people spend so much at the casino they could get the amount they were seeking by simply putting it in a fucking bank. With a 100% guarantee of success, rather than the extremely low success rate of winning big gambling. However it is their money, and they should be able to do it.

I don't support laws about wearing helmets, wearing a seatbelt, what size magazine you buy for your gun, whether or not you gamble, what size soda you can buy, etc. Assuming I do proves you've smoke some bad shit.

Good for you. Never said you support those laws particularly, but those are the types of laws I had in mind with my original post. This is why you don't make assumptions sir. Now you've spent this whole time arguing about something you basically agree with me on. I would put drug laws in the stupid nanny state shit right alongside seatbelt laws and gun laws, but that's only a small part. If you generally agree we have too many laws, and should not have such nanny state laws like seatbelt laws, gun laws, gambling laws, etc. you basically agree with me.

Don't try to move away from your claim that people commit crimes despite no convictions.

Don't try to move away the simple fact you can serve jail time without conviction. The sheer size of our incarcerated population is proof enough there's too many laws.

You're the one that said "we're through" based on me not agreeing with what you said. That's called running like a little bitch with a spoiled brat attitude. Either I have to agree or you'll take your ball and go home.

You don't have to agree with me, in fact I love a good debate, you just have to be intelligent and civil. Is it really that hard? There's plenty of people on this forum that I disagree with that I can hold a fulfilling, civil, intelligent debate with. On all sides of the spectrum. You are not one of them. Mostly because everything comes back to the fact I smoke weed and thus I must be stupid. I admitted I did it one time in the interest of honesty, and you have not been able to let it go since. That was months ago. And I'm frankly tired of you pissing your panties over it. If you can actually debate me civilly I'll stick around. Hell, the fact that I'm still replying to you after what you've said in this discussion so far and your past shitfests says loads about my patience. And I don't think any reasonable poster reading this right now, even ones who disagree with my argument, would blame me for walking away at this point. I have tried.

When you talk about people being guilty of committing crimes every day without a trial having taken place then complain about people sitting in jail for something they say they didn't do, you weaken your argument. Without a conviction of what you say people do, how do you know they've broken the law?

It's called common sense. We know that things most people do without a thought every day are illegal. We know there are so many laws nobody can reasonably keep up with what is legal and what is not. Not everybody goes to jail for these things, but those laws are there and the possibility exists. And those laws are enforced. I'm attempting to stress to you that even if people aren't always convicted of those crimes, they often still end up sitting in jail for them. Or are at the very least in danger of it. This is a problem, yes? Generally well-meaning, peaceful citizens who attempt to follow the law shouldn't be in fear every day of fucking up and breaking some benign law nobody knows about.

https://mises.org/library/decriminalize-average-man
http://www.businessinsider.com/most-commonly-broken-laws-in-america-2013-10
http://www.digitalspy.com/tech/feat...from-password-sharing-to-enjoying-free-wi-fi/
http://www.cracked.com/article_19450_6-laws-youve-broken-without-even-realizing-it.html
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/03/29/crime-law-criminal-unfair-column/70630978/

I don't get to define speedy and neither do you. If you've been in that situation, take it to court and complain that your rights weren't followed.

You're being intellectually dishonest here. Speedy is subjective, sure. But only to a point. When we start talking about years, no reasonable person would consider that speedy. A trial should come shortly after arrest. It is insulting that our country can't provide constitutionally guaranteed rights to people. All because a couple assholes think it's a good idea to bog up the criminal justice system with nanny state laws dictating what people do with their own bodies.

Innocent people shouldn't be behind bars. However, not everyone that claims they are innocent are innocent. Plenty of people in jail that did exactly what they were convicted of doing make that claim. Should we let them go?

Ever heard of innocent until proven guilty? Shit like this is why I call you an authoritarian. I'm not being mean and name-calling, I'm entirely serious when I call you that. You are fundamentally opposed to the tenants that make up a free republic and the most basic of our constitutional rights.
 
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Here's an idea, stop making stupid shit illegal. There's way too many laws in this country. Did you know there are so many laws, and long, complicated ones I might add, that it is estimated the average American commits three felonies a day without even realizing it? Unacceptable. Nonviolent people don't belong in jail. If we went back to the basics: don't kill, don't rape, don't steal, etc. I could agree with you. But not until then.

this from somebody who wants Flynn in jail for talking to a Russian after the election because it might have been collusion to get Trump elected........
 
this from somebody who wants Flynn in jail for talking to a Russian after the election because it might have been collusion to get Trump elected........

Um. Quote me where I said that sir. Because I don't believe that at all. In fact, I can pull up several posts where I said the whole Russia collusion thing is complete bullshit and just an excuse for why Democrats lost.........
 
My determination of stupidity is if it's protecting people from themselves rather than others. For example, I don't gamble. It's a racket and I think it's an activity for fools. Alot of people spend so much at the casino they could get the amount they were seeking by simply putting it in a fucking bank. With a 100% guarantee of success, rather than the extremely low success rate of winning big gambling. However it is their money, and they should be able to do it.



Good for you. Never said you support those laws particularly, but those are the types of laws I had in mind with my original post. This is why you don't make assumptions sir. Now you've spent this whole time arguing about something you basically agree with me on. I would put drug laws in the stupid nanny state shit right alongside seatbelt laws and gun laws, but that's only a small part. If you generally agree we have too many laws, and should not have such nanny state laws like seatbelt laws, gun laws, gambling laws, etc. you basically agree with me.



Don't try to move away the simple fact you can serve jail time without conviction. The sheer size of our incarcerated population is proof enough there's too many laws.



You don't have to agree with me, in fact I love a good debate, you just have to be intelligent and civil. Is it really that hard? There's plenty of people on this forum that I disagree with that I can hold a fulfilling, civil, intelligent debate with. On all sides of the spectrum. You are not one of them. Mostly because everything comes back to the fact I smoke weed and thus I must be stupid. If you can actually debate me civilly I'll stick around. Hell, the fact that I'm still replying to you after what you've said in this discussion so far and your past shitfests says loads about my patience. And I don't think any reasonable poster reading this right now, even ones who disagree with my argument, would blame me for walking away at this point. I have tried.



It's called common sense. We know that things most people do without a thought every day are illegal. We know there are so many laws nobody can reasonably keep up with what is legal and what is not. Not everybody goes to jail for these things, but those laws are there and the possibility exists. And those laws are enforced. I'm attempting to stress to you that even if people aren't always convicted of those crimes, they often still end up sitting in jail for them. Or are at the very least in danger of it. This is a problem, yes? Generally well-meaning, peaceful citizens who attempt to follow the law shouldn't be in fear every day of fucking up and breaking some benign law nobody knows about.

https://mises.org/library/decriminalize-average-man
http://www.businessinsider.com/most-commonly-broken-laws-in-america-2013-10
http://www.digitalspy.com/tech/feat...from-password-sharing-to-enjoying-free-wi-fi/
http://www.cracked.com/article_19450_6-laws-youve-broken-without-even-realizing-it.html
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/03/29/crime-law-criminal-unfair-column/70630978/



You're being intellectually dishonest here. Speedy is subjective, sure. But only to a point. When we start talking about years, no reasonable person would consider that speedy. A trial should come shortly after arrest. It is insulting that our country can't provide constitutionally guaranteed rights to people. All because a couple assholes think it's a good idea to bog up the criminal justice system with nanny state laws dictating what people do with their own bodies.



Ever heard of innocent until proven guilty? Shit like this is why I call you an authoritarian. I'm not being mean and name-calling, I'm entirely serious when I call you that. You are fundamentally opposed to all the tenants that make up a free republic and the most basic of our constitutional rights.

If it's their money and you admit they should be able to do with it as they please, how can you determine it's stupid for them to do it. Wouldn't the only person for which you can make that determination be you?

You admitted that drug laws were part of what you meant making what I said accurate. I don't see drug laws as nanny state laws. If you do, your argument would have to be based on the mindset that someone doing drugs affects only themselves and no one else, ever. Just like you've argued that people waiting on trial for a long time can tear apart families and ruin lives, so can drug use. It can affect people not using drugs as much as it does those who do use them. I've seen it.

The large number incarcerated doesn't prove there are too many laws just too many that choose to break them.

You're the one that has determined people commit crimes every day without a conviction.

"Common sense"? There you go again thinking because you believe a certain way it has to be that way and the rest of us should follow your logic.

Speedy is subjective and always will be. It's a relative term which mean what you find speedy or not speedy someone else may not. My 81 year old mother, and she gets around very well, would consider herself speedy. By the subjective viewpoint of someone much younger, she is not.

You mention shortly. That is also subjective proven by the fact that you didn't mention a specific time frame.

You're the one that has determined the guilt of people on a daily basis without a conviction. Perhaps you've never heard of innocent until proven guilty. Your argument is "it's common sense" to say what you said. In other words you're saying it's that way because you said so.

If you consider me authoritarian, you must consider yourself that way because when you determine guilt of people and say they do it every day despite no conviction taking place, you do what you say is wrong to do. Therefore, when you claim I do things and they are wrong yet you do them yourself, you're the typical hypocrite.
 
Um. Quote me where I said that sir. Because I don't believe that at all. In fact, I can pull up several posts where I said the whole Russia collusion thing is complete bullshit and just an excuse for why Democrats lost.........

my apologies then.....most of your posts make you sound like any other frantic lib'rul........
 
If it's their money and you admit they should be able to do with it as they please, how can you determine it's stupid for them to do it. Wouldn't the only person for which you can make that determination be you?

It's called I don't think my personal views should have any impact whatsoever on the laws in our country. I would never use the force of law to stop anyone from doing it, but I do believe it's far more intelligent to simply save your money than blow it all on the extremely minute off chance you could win.

You admitted that drug laws were part of what you meant making what I said accurate. I don't see drug laws as nanny state laws. If you do, your argument would have to be based on the mindset that someone doing drugs affects only themselves and no one else, ever. Just like you've argued that people waiting on trial for a long time can tear apart families and ruin lives, so can drug use. It can affect people not using drugs as much as it does those who do use them. I've seen it.

Thank you. That's the intelligent retort I was looking for. Pretty reasonable argument, though I disagree. Let's talk about that. Drug use in and of itself doesn't affect others, that's why it shouldn't be illegal. It's what people choose to do while on them that matters. Kind of like with alcohol. Choosing to drink and drive is very much illegal and should be. We don't criminalize alcohol because it lowers your inhibitions and often makes one think they are ok to drive when they aren't. This is because not all who drink, drink and drive. Despite a strong correlation between the two, we hold people accountable for the actions they actually do rather than for doing things that may lead to those actions. Saying drugs should be illegal because people who use them may do this or may do that as a result is called a slippery slope logical fallacy and has no place in our criminal justice system.

The large number incarcerated doesn't prove there are too many laws just too many that choose to break them. You're the one that has determined people commit crimes every day without a conviction.

Fine, I concede that one. Again, thank you for the intelligent retort. This is how debates work. And as you see I have not yet left, and have maintained civility with you. Hopefully this is a start to a new relationship with each other on this forum.

The sheer amount of laws in this country is an objective fact. There are about 20,000 laws just governing the use and ownership of guns. That's only one tiny little area of legislative oversight. 20,000 laws. Can you name these laws off the top of your head? I know I wouldn't have the time to type them out even if I used google as a reference. And that's just for guns. The Internal Revenue Code contains more than 3.4 million words, coming up to roughly 7,500 pages. In a typical year, Congress passes at least 125 new laws. In 10 years this adds up to roughly a thousand laws. There's little benign laws like not sharing your netflix password. And we are just speaking federally here, we have not yet touched on state and local laws. There is no way anybody can remember all these laws and obey them to the letter. As a result, people who intend to follow the law still end up breaking them. This is a problem. I would like to hear your justification for this.

http://www.kowal.com/?q=How-Many-Federal-Laws-Are-There?

"Common sense"? There you go again thinking because you believe a certain way it has to be that way and the rest of us should follow your logic.

Yes, common sense. Something actually all too uncommon these days. We have so many laws there's actually no solid number of how many there are. Is it not common sense to assume it's fucking difficult to obey the law when you don't know how many there are, much less what they are?

Speedy is subjective and always will be. It's a relative term which mean what you find speedy or not speedy someone else may not. My 81 year old mother, and she gets around very well, would consider herself speedy. By the subjective viewpoint of someone much younger, she is not. You mention shortly. That is also subjective proven by the fact that you didn't mention a specific time frame.

If she took 10 years to get from her bedroom to the bathroom, say like 50 feet, could anybody ever consider that speedy? There is a point where something usually pretty subjective becomes so ridiculous it's no longer a subjective issue. If I were bitching about a few weeks or even like two or three months, I would concede here. But waiting years in jail for a trial is so ridiculous it's no longer subjectively slow but slow without a doubt in the world.

You're the one that has determined the guilt of people on a daily basis without a conviction. Perhaps you've never heard of innocent until proven guilty. Your argument is "it's common sense" to say what you said. In other words you're saying it's that way because you said so.
If you consider me authoritarian, you must consider yourself that way because when you determine guilt of people and say they do it every day despite no conviction taking place, you do what you say is wrong to do. Therefore, when you claim I do things and they are wrong yet you do them yourself, you're the typical hypocrite.

I only said there are people sitting in jail unconvicted. You are the one that said it is justified to keep them there because "alot of people in jail say they're innocent when they're not, should we just let them go?" I'm the one that believes, yes, we should. Until we can prove they are guilty. If you consider this dangerous, maybe that's actually an argument in my favor. We should get them into a trial ASAP so we can determine if they're guilty and lock them up. The best way to set up trials this quickly is to ease the strain on our criminal justice resources by only keeping the laws most necessary for public safety.
 
Ava Duvernay 13th! Documentary

A must see if you really want to know about the incarceration rate.
 
my apologies then.....most of your posts make you sound like any other frantic lib'rul........

Let that be a lesson not to make such assumptions. I do agree with liberals on some issues, but I also disagree with them on a number. Not everybody is so black & white partisan.
 
It's called I don't think my personal views should have any impact whatsoever on the laws in our country. I would never use the force of law to stop anyone from doing it, but I do believe it's far more intelligent to simply save your money than blow it all on the extremely minute off chance you could win.



Thank you. That's the intelligent retort I was looking for. Pretty reasonable argument, though I disagree. Let's talk about that. Drug use in and of itself doesn't affect others, that's why it shouldn't be illegal. It's what people choose to do while on them that matters. Kind of like with alcohol. Choosing to drink and drive is very much illegal and should be. We don't criminalize alcohol because it lowers your inhibitions and often makes one think they are ok to drive when they aren't. This is because not all who drink, drink and drive. Despite a strong correlation between the two, we hold people accountable for the actions they actually do rather than doing things that may lead to those actions. Saying drugs should be illegal because people use who them may do this or may do that as a result is called a slippery slope logical fallacy and has no place in our criminal justice system.



Fine, I concede that one. Again, thank you for the intelligent retort. This is how debates work. And as you see I have not yet left, and have maintained civility with you. Hopefully this is a start to a new relationship with each other on this forum.

The sheer amount of laws in this country is an objective fact. There are about 20,000 laws just governing the use and ownership of guns. That's only one tiny little area of legislative oversight. 20,000 laws. Can you name these laws off the top of your head? I know I wouldn't have the time to type them out even if I used google as a reference. And that's just for guns. The Internal Revenue Code contains more than 3.4 million words, coming up to roughly 7,500 pages. In a typical year, Congress passes at least 125 new laws. In 10 years this adds up to roughly a thousand laws. There's little benign laws like not sharing your netflix password. And we are just speaking federally here, we have not yet touched on state and local laws. There is no way anybody can remember all these laws and obey them to the letter. As a result, people who intend to follow the law still end up breaking them. This is a problem. I would like to hear your justification for this.

http://www.kowal.com/?q=How-Many-Federal-Laws-Are-There?



Yes, common sense. Something actually all too uncommon these days. We have so many laws there's actually no solid number of how many there are. Is it not common sense to assume it's fucking difficult to obey the law when you don't know how many there are, much less what they are?



If she took 10 years to get from her bedroom to the bathroom, say like 50 feet, could anybody ever consider that speedy? There is a point where something usually pretty subjective becomes so ridiculous it's no longer a subjective issue. If I were bitching about a few weeks or even like two or three months, I would concede here. But waiting years in jail for a trial is so ridiculous it's no longer subjectively slow but slow without a doubt in the world.



I only said there are people sitting in jail unconvicted. You are the one that said it is justified to keep them there because "alot of people in jail say they're innocent when they're not, should we just let them go?" I'm the one that believes, yes, we should. Until we can prove they are guilty.

That you call it stupid means you believe anyone not looking at it your way is stupid. Since it's not your money, making that statement proves you're an arrogant bastard.

That you think drug use itself only affects the person doing it is foolish and proves you haven't a clue about reality. If the sole reason someone takes the action is because the drug use caused it, you can't separate the two. If the person wouldn't have done it had drugs not been involved proves that.

That there are a lot of laws which can be numbered is objective. Whether or not it's too many is subjective. My opposition to the gun laws aren't that they don't work because criminals for which they are designed don't follow them.

Using the common sense argument claiming people that don't agree with you don't have it shows arrogance. You're saying you're right and everyone else is wrong. Again, that's arrogance.

It's still subjective no matter how hard you try to claim it isn't.

Why are you so intent on people agreeing with you. I know. Arrogance.

You're the one that has convicted people on a daily basis without a trial.

If you want those that CLAIM they're not guilty to roam the streets until they're convicted, maybe the killer, rapist, etc. that should be held because they are a threat to society will make you or a family member your next victim. That may shock your drug addled brain back to reality.
 
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