I'm one progressive liberal who....

[leaningright]

sorry man. It isn't my wish that these idiots are here. I try to walk a line and deal with what I can while keeping my promise to keep folks' first amendment rights sacred.

No problem, Damo. I’ve always appreciated this site for its freedoms. I just try to pick and choose those with whom I’m willing to engage. Unfortunately that pool is shrinking. It’s definitely not your fault.

 

[evince]

When you ban and ignore people on a chat site designed for debate


You are being a fool



Why debate


Just go talk to ONLY those who agree with you

 

[Carmine]

The pattern I see here is that if they don't agree with you in thought or action you abuse them, call it mocking, and then pretend you have the only right way to think about something and pat yourself on the back for taking the "moral" path. All while telling folks that if they don't think like you want them to, then they just aren't "woman" enough, or "black" enough. Basically, I see that you judge folks not for their minds or character, but by the color of their skin, and use that measure to tell them how they should act to avoid your scorn and abuse.

I'm sure that this makes sense to you, Damocles.

 

[cawacko]

Start from here brother, it’s bigger than you. It’s bigger than your narrowly defined concepts of how we should conduct ourselves. No disrespect intended, just real talk. Our survival in a land of people who would slaughter babies was in part dependent, and still is, on our connection to each other internally. No doubt that confuses you, but it’s only natural that it would. We are a tribal people. Our politics are tribal, and those politics have served us well as 13% of the population,

Long story short, you don’t participate in our politics and you don’t understand our motivations. The subject of this thread is a testament to the horrors and perils of honest life that we have always been subjected to in this land of Nazis. We know how to survive in it by ways you may not understand.

There are two different conversations here. The first is regarding a white person (in this case NiftyNiblick) making the comments he did. If we're talking about white supremacy I don't see how that is anything but.

I will never say black people (or anyone) HAVE to think or believe a certain way. I know this is a political board so that's what we focus on but there is more to all this than just who people vote for. Politicians aren't saviors and while they certainly play a role of what happens in this country there are other factors involved too.

 

[christiefan915]

I have to point out, to be truthful, that most of us on the right don’t dislike Howard Zinn’s American History book because it “examines both the good and bad parts of our history,” but because he highlights the bad with subtleties made (some not so subtle) toward legitimizing and/or promoting socialism. He believed in socialism.

I don’t. Therefore I have and will oppose using his work to indoctrinate our youth. One can and should teach the truth without promoting an ideology. There are literary works and there are great teachers who do that every day.

Just wanted to clarify the “why” that many of us on the right don’t like that particular work. I fully support works that paint this country as it is, warts and all, but not those that would in any way promote socialism of the type that many want. There is a reason this guy was/is such a champion of the “left wing of the Democratic Party.”

Disclaimer: If I screwed up this post it’s because I’m trying to type it while watching the Friends reunion.

AFAIK the People's History wasn't written to take the place of regular textbooks but to supplement them. I haven't heard of any schools using it so can't comment if it's being taught. I don't have a problem with highlighting the bad parts of our history as a comparison to what's been taught previously. We did do some awful things and they shouldn't be covered up. For example it's a nice bit of trivia to learn that Andrew Jackson's wife smoked a corncob pipe but it's more important to know that he was responsible for the American Indian Removal policy, and the Trail of Tears.

I haven't read the whole book and don't know how Zinn worked socialism into it, but I also don't have a problem with learning about other economic systems in addition to capitalism. IMO teaching about them is not the same as indoctrinating. We all learned about different economic systems in school and I believe that's the way you separate the good from the bad, by studying, contrasting and comparing. When we read history or even historical fiction, the economic systems are part of it even if we don't recognize it as such. Another example, read Dickens and you get a pretty clear picture of economics along with the character portraits, an example being Hard Times.

Frankly I don't understand the right's obsession with socialism. The US will never be a socialist country. It's been tried in various communities and they all failed in the end, examples the Harmony, Oneida and Amana colonies. I believe there is a small group of leftists who want socialism in the US but they are not mainstream. Socialism as a political party in the US peaked in the early 1900s.

I personally don't see socialism as an imminent threat here but can't say the same for some right-wing movements. I'm more concerned about the flow of wealth and power to the upper 1% here, while the middle and lower classes get the shaft.

 

[cawacko]

AFAIK the People's History wasn't written to take the place of regular textbooks but to supplement them. I haven't heard of any schools using it so can't comment if it's being taught. I don't have a problem with highlighting the bad parts of our history as a comparison to what's been taught previously. We did do some awful things and they shouldn't be covered up. For example it's a nice bit of trivia to learn that Andrew Jackson's wife smoked a corncob pipe but it's more important to know that he was responsible for the American Indian Removal policy, and the Trail of Tears.

I haven't read the whole book and don't know how Zinn worked socialism into it, but I also don't have a problem with learning about other economic systems in addition to capitalism. IMO teaching about them is not the same as indoctrinating. We all learned about different economic systems in school and I believe that's the way you separate the good from the bad, by studying, contrasting and comparing. When we read history or even historical fiction, the economic systems are part of it even if we don't recognize it as such. Another example, read Dickens and you get a pretty clear picture of economics along with the character portraits, an example being Hard Times.

Frankly I don't understand the right's obsession with socialism. The US will never be a socialist country. It's been tried in various communities and they all failed in the end, examples the Harmony, Oneida and Amana colonies. I believe there is a small group of leftists who want socialism in the US but they are not mainstream. Socialism as a political party in the US peaked in the early 1900s.

I personally don't see socialism as an imminent threat here but can't say the same for some right-wing movements. I'm more concerned about the flow of wealth and power to the upper 1% here, while the middle and lower classes get the shaft.

I'll only speak for myself but I'm willing to guess others share my sentiment regarding our "obsession" over socialism. No other economic system has produced as much progress, wealth and prosperity as capitalism (which is not to say capitalism is perfect). Yet people still want us to move toward a more socialistic model. We may not achieve a Cuba or a Soviet Union style economic model but the Bernie Sanders of the world would prefer we move more in that direction. Look at polls of young people today and you'll find some that say half of the youth think we should be a more socialist country. That's why I don't take capitalism for granted and "obsess" over it.

 

[christiefan915]

I'll only speak for myself but I'm willing to guess others share my sentiment regarding our "obsession" over socialism. No other economic system has produced as much progress, wealth and prosperity as capitalism (which is not to say capitalism is perfect). Yet people still want us to move toward a more socialistic model. We may not achieve a Cuba or a Soviet Union style economic model but the Bernie Sanders of the world would prefer we move more in that direction. Look at polls of young people today and you'll find some that say half of the youth think we should be a more socialist country. That's why I don't take capitalism for granted and "obsess" over it.

How do you define a more socialistic model? What do you think we're doing or want to do that leads to a more socialistic model?

 

[cawacko]

How do you define a more socialistic model? What do you think we're doing or want to do that leads to a more socialistic model?

Fair question. At a high level I’ll point to the agenda folks like Bernie and AOC advocate for. Free health care (the idea that any profit motive in the system is bad), free college, college debt forgiveness and portions of the Green New Deal that call for additional govt control over the economy. Now that isn’t going to make us Venezuela but it is a definite path of more gov’t control. You throw the polls that show the youths disillusion with capitalism and desire for socialism and it tells me something isn’t right here

 

[leaningright]

Fair question. At a high level I’ll point to the agenda folks like Bernie and AOC advocate for. Free health care (the idea that any profit motive in the system is bad), free college, college debt forgiveness and portions of the Green New Deal that call for additional govt control over the economy. Now that isn’t going to make us Venezuela but it is a definite path of more gov’t control. You throw the polls that show the youths disillusion with capitalism and desire for socialism and it tells me something isn’t right here

Great answers from both of your posts. Another I’ll add is the incentives for people not to work that keep hanging on. I’m talking about federal boosts to unemployment and all of these extra checks from the federal government that have heavy support/praise from those who support a UBI.

 

[cawacko]

Start from here brother, it’s bigger than you. It’s bigger than your narrowly defined concepts of how we should conduct ourselves. No disrespect intended, just real talk. Our survival in a land of people who would slaughter babies was in part dependent, and still is, on our connection to each other internally. No doubt that confuses you, but it’s only natural that it would. We are a tribal people. Our politics are tribal, and those politics have served us well as 13% of the population,

Long story short, you don’t participate in our politics and you don’t understand our motivations. The subject of this thread is a testament to the horrors and perils of honest life that we have always been subjected to in this land of Nazis. We know how to survive in it by ways you may not understand.

BAC, let me ask you this if I may and you are of course free not to respond. And I hope I'm not being too personal but I believe you mentioned one of your children is a cop. There was an article/interview in the WSJ last summer with someone high up in the NYPD during the time of the protests. The guy mentioned that there were young white protestors screaming at his minority (black) cops that they were sell outs to their race for being police officers.

I do not understand that mindset or mentality. Again, white people saying that because you're black you can only think a certain way or hold certain jobs etc. But maybe I am missing something here and I'd love to know if I am. Because while I understand the black experience in America is a unique one, I do not see the benefits of putting artificial limitations on people.

 

[blackascoal]

BAC, let me ask you this if I may and you are of course free not to respond. And I hope I'm not being too personal but I believe you mentioned one of your children is a cop. There was an article/interview in the WSJ last summer with someone high up in the NYPD during the time of the protests. The guy mentioned that there were young white protestors screaming at his minority (black) cops that they were sell outs to their race for being police officers.

Let me preface my response by telling you that I quite enjoy talking to you. You are someone I can speak honestly to and expect an honest answer .. even when we disagree.

Yes my son was a cop, until he was killed last year while on duty. Still incredibly painful to think about it.

To your point about young white protestord screaming at black cops .. they have every right to scream at them, but not because they’re ‘sellouts.’ Growing numbers of white youth don’t just empathize with the black struggle and experience in the way their parents may have, they have internalized it. I get to talk to many of them in DSA gatherings. It’s fascinating and I always look forward to it. Some get exposed to more militant thought and sometimes align themselves to it. They aren’t violent, but they have internalize the pain of manically police disorder. Not violent, but seriously angry.

Police are a necessary evil, but we must defund the disorder. My son knew that, and we both understood the visceral anger just looking at a cop would provoke. Black cops need to step up, something many black cops, like my son would tell you.

Imagine waking up in a violent world where the creatures boiled women and babies as punishment .. after raping them. Imagine that the creatures who held you captive could do anything they wanted to you, your family, and everybody you know.

That’s what you’re missing good brother. That is what we woke up to in America. A land of demons and monsters that would lynch and burn innocent people for fun .. and 400 years later, we are still fighting them, they still exist. YES, AND ABSOLUTELY. There is a line that cannot be crossed in a society fighting against monsters. Being cancelled is something I whole+heartedly agree with.

You don’t understand because you haven’t internalized the vision of the land of demons and monsters. That’s a real story, and it isn’t black history, it’s American history.

Would you expect a Jewish person to support a party of Nazis? You shouldn’t expect black people to be in any way supportive of a party of monsters..

 

[evince]

Great answers from both of your posts. Another I’ll add is the incentives for people not to work that keep hanging on. I’m talking about federal boosts to unemployment and all of these extra checks from the federal government that have heavy support/praise from those who support a UBI.

Then stop giving the wealthiest great big tax cuts


Feeding hungry children who’s parents have lost their job because a world traveling disease is THE SANE THING TO DO


Poor people work harder than wealthy people


Why do you republicans constantly LIE about that ?

 

[cawacko]

Let me preface my response by telling you that I quite enjoy talking to you. You are someone I can speak honestly to and expect an honest answer .. even when we disagree.

Yes my son was a cop, until he was killed last year while on duty. Still incredibly painful to think about it.

To your point about young white protestord screaming at black cops .. they have every right to scream at them, but not because they’re ‘sellouts.’ Growing numbers of white youth don’t just empathize with the black struggle and experience in the way their parents may have, they have internalized it. I get to talk to many of them in DSA gatherings. It’s fascinating and I always look forward to it. Some get exposed to more militant thought and sometimes align themselves to it. They aren’t violent, but they have internalize the pain of manically police disorder. Not violent, but seriously angry.

Police are a necessary evil, but we must defund the disorder. My son knew that, and we both understood the visceral anger just looking at a cop would provoke. Black cops need to step up, something many black cops, like my son would tell you.

Imagine waking up in a violent world where the creatures boiled women and babies as punishment .. after raping them. Imagine that the creatures who held you captive could do anything they wanted to you, your family, and everybody you know.

That’s what you’re missing good brother. That is what we woke up to in America. A land of demons and monsters that would lynch and burn innocent people for fun .. and 400 years later, we are still fighting them, they still exist. YES, AND ABSOLUTELY. There is a line that cannot be crossed in a society fighting against monsters. Being cancelled is something I whole+heartedly agree with.

You don’t understand because you haven’t internalized the vision of the land of demons and monsters. That’s a real story, and it isn’t black history, it’s American history.

Would you expect a Jewish person to support a party of Nazis? You shouldn’t expect black people to be in any way supportive of a party of monsters..

For starters I can't even fathom the loss of a child so my deepest condolences. Makes everything else almost seem irrelevant.

Regarding cops, I can't claim to know the total ins and out of how the cop world works. I don't know how much autonomy officers on the street have when doing their jobs vs. they are basically just following instructions. (in other words protestors can scream at cops but does that do anything if the people they really have issue with are the ones in power who make the rules that cops are required to follow) But my point was bigger than just cops. It's the attitude, especially coming from white people, that to be black means you can't do something (or are a sell-out).

And my position here is bigger than just voting. Take white people. I am not all that knowledge on this but I know that based on where people came from in Europe has played a role in their success in America (so more cultural stuff). That has nothing to do with whether they vote Democrat or Republican. J.D. Vance attempted to hit on it a little bit in his Hillbilly Elegy book, why have there been generations of poor whites in certain areas of this country.

I'll even talk about my family. My brother-in-law is black, but not African-American. His dad is from Trinidad-Tobago and his mom is white and Canadian. He was born in Canada and his family immigrated to the U.S. when he was young. I have three nieces and nephews. They aren't dark like Wesley Snipes or Charlie Murphy but they aren't blond hair and blue eyes either. You can tell they have color in them (for a lack of a better term). My B-I-L is President of a tech firm in the Silicon Valley. (makes a lot more money than I do) My nieces and nephews school looks like the U.N. (It's close to the Silicon Valley; a large number of Asian, Indian and Pakistani kids in it.) They should learn our country's history like the rest of us do but why should they have a burden on them restricting how they can/should think or what they can/should do, because they are black, that these other kids don't? They'll be competing against top kids around the world to get into the Cal's, Stanford's and USC's of the world and then whatever they want to do after that. If some white kid (or anyone really) came up and told them they couldn't purse what they want to do, I'd probably kick their ass. (over protective Uncle) What my nieces and nephew do isn't going to be determined by a politician. They're still young but they've grown up in a loving home with lots of support. The world is their oyster and they'll have every opportunity to pursue their dreams. That's a good thing.

Edit: Regarding Jewish people supporting Nazi's. If you believe Iolo he has posted on multiple occasions that Israel is Nazi's. So considering its Jewish people who vote in the Israeli gov't, if you believe his position then they actually do support Nazi's.