NATO encroachent in Russian Black Sea waters is a war waiting to happen

dukkha said:
but that's not the reason. The reason is to harass because of the Crimean annexation - why else get that close to Sevastopol?
China claims we do the same in the South China Sea -and we do.
we do it to keep the sea lanes open and to push back on the 9 DASH LINE claims

I think one can say da Russians shouldnt be doing this - although international waters are much different then restricted

My interest is this is it's extremely provocative and can easily lead to live fire
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I think the illegal Crimean invasion needs to be challenged. It is not sovereign Russian territory by legitimate means.

It is provocative.

But the Kremlin has no one to blame but themselves.
 
Cypress said:
I think the illegal Crimean invasion needs to be challenged. It is not sovereign Russian territory by legitimate means.

It is provocative.

But the Kremlin has no one to blame but themselves.
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defacto it is.
and if you want to lay blame -start with John McCain and Vicky Nuland and their role in fomenting the police riot
of the Euromaidan.

Poroshenko basically said "no more lease" for Sevastopol. forcing Putin to annex Crimea
 
dukkha said:
defacto it is.
and if you want to lay blame -start with John McCain and Vicky Nuland and their role in fomenting the police riot
of the Euromaidan.

Poroshenko basically said "no more lease" for Sevastopol. forcing Putin to annex Crimea
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We supposedly learned in the 1930s that appeasement, and the forcible annexation of territory of weaker nations by stronger nations was a road we did not want to go down.
 
Cypress said:
We supposedly learned in the 1930s that appeasement, and the forcible annexation of territory of weaker nations by stronger nations was a road we did not want to go down.
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completely different scenario. Putin is not looking to expand Russian borders.
More then anything he wants a better economy - which is why i always say we could deal with him to remove some sanctions in return for him not arming the separatists (etc)
 
dukkha said:
ALL excellent points. especially HK -a former Brit colony that China violated the treaty on the turnover.

It ALL goes back to Russiaphobia; utterly misplaced and stupid overturning of the Nixon China card
for the phobes.
I am not positive we could ever decouple Russia and China military - they arent a unified command yet
but thy can defacto do so (Vostok 2018 games)

Instead we force Putin into Xi's sphere
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I think Putin is very wary of CHina but trade/money/power has a very strong allure..

If you see my signature the gif pretty much shows that exponential ccp growth, power & influence & Russia is already there..

There are certainly some bennies to be had by a better relationship w/ Russia, hopefully that can come about some day..
 
Bill said:
I think Putin is very wary of CHina but trade/money/power has a very strong allure..

If you see my signature the gif pretty much shows that exponential ccp growth, power & influence & Russia is already there..

There are certainly some bennies to be had by a better relationship w/ Russia, hopefully that can come about some day..
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thanks for pointing that gif out - informative.

We had a Russian reset that was going reasonably well, but US meddling in the Euromaidan put everything
in a bad place since Putin had a forced move ( as in chess) to secure Sevastopol access

Then the Russian Hoax ( Comey/Rosenstein/Mueller et all) destroyed Trump's chances at improving relations
with Russia. Biden is clueless -all he did was hand Putin a list of demands with no motive for Putin to reciprocate

So im not optimistic. our Intel agencies will always be determined to undermine any improvements
 
Cypress said:
We supposedly learned in the 1930s that appeasement, and the forcible annexation of territory of weaker nations by stronger nations was a road we did not want to go down.
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We also learned that wars are not only very expensive, but the tech to destroy the entire planet made them too risky to engage in a major war.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
We also learned that wars are not only very expensive, but the tech to destroy the entire planet made them too risky to engage in a major war.
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that's the idea (Mutual Assured Destruction) but there are an awful lot of nukes out there.
Suppose Iran ( and all that hidden Iman stuff) does get nukes - (looking more and more likely) and they use a nuke
What happens from there?
 
dukkha said:
that's the idea (Mutual Assured Destruction) but there are an awful lot of nukes out there.
Suppose Iran ( and all that hidden Iman stuff) does get nukes - (looking more and more likely) and they use a nuke
What happens from there?
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Tehran ceases to exist. The Iranians are not crazy enough to use a nuke where it can be traced to them. They want nukes for the same reason Israel wanted them: so no one would attack them conventionally. The Arab-Israeli wars became ceased the moment Israel got nukes. That's why terrorism became the tool of the Islamacists.
 
dukkha said:
Russia is prepared to target intruding warships if they fail to heed warnings, a senior Russian diplomat said Thursday in a tough statement in the wake of a Black Sea incident in which a British destroyer sailed near Crimea in an area that Russia claims as its territorial waters.

Russia said one of its warships fired warning shots and a warplane dropped bombs in the path of British destroyer Defender on Wednesday to drive it away from the area near Sevastopol. Britain denied that account, insisted its ship wasn’t fired upon and said it was sailing in Ukrainian waters.

The incident marked the first time since the Cold War that Moscow acknowledged using live ammunition to deter a NATO warship, underlining the rising threat of military collisions amid Russia-West tensions.

Russia's Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov said Thursday that "the inviolability of the Russian borders is an absolute imperative," adding that it will be protected "by all means, diplomatic, political and military if needed."

He sarcastically suggested that the British navy should rename its destroyer from Defender to Aggressor and warned that "those who try to test our strength are taking high risks."

Asked what Russia would do to prevent such intrusions in the future, Ryabkov told reporters it would stand ready to fire on targets if warnings don't work.

RUSSIAN SHIP FIRES WARNING SHOTS AT UK WARSHIP IN BLACK SEA

"We may appeal to reason and demand to respect international law," Ryabkov said, according to the Interfax news agency. "If it doesn’t help, we may drop bombs and not just in the path but right on target if colleagues don’t get it otherwise."

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov deplored what he described as a "deliberate and well-prepared provocation" by Britain and seconded the tough warning.

"If unacceptable provocative actions are repeated, if those actions go too far, no options to legitimately protect the borders of the Russian Federation could be excluded," Peskov said in a call with reporters.

RUSSIAN DEFENSE MINISTRY SUMMONS BRITISH DEFENSE ATTACHE OVER BLACK SEA 'WARNING SHOTS' DISPUTE

On Wednesday, the Russian Defense Ministry said a patrol ship fired warning shots after the HMS Defender had ignored a notice against intrusion and sailed 3 kilometers (1.6 nautical miles) into Russia’s territorial waters near Sevastopol, the main Russian naval base in Crimea. It said a Russian Su-24 bomber also dropped four bombs ahead of the vessel to persuade the Defender to change course. Minutes later, the Defender left Russian waters, the ministry said.

Britain denied the Defender had been fired on or that bombs were dropped in its path. It insisted that the ship was making a routine journey through an internationally recognized travel lane and remained in Ukrainian waters. The U.K., like most of the international community, recognizes Crimea as part of Ukraine despite the peninsula's 2014 annexation by Russia.

British Prime Minister Boris Johnson would not say whether he had personally approved the Defender’s voyage but suggested the Royal Navy was making a point by taking the route it had.

"The important point is that we don’t recognize the Russian annexation of Crimea, this is part of a sovereign Ukrainian territory," Johnson told reporters Thursday during a visit to an army barracks in England. "It was entirely right that we should vindicate the law and pursue freedom of navigation in the way that we did, take the shortest route between two points, and that’s what we did.
https://www.foxnews.com/world/russia-next-time-may-fire-hit-intruding-warships
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omg Foxnews the faux and propaganda bs network of the century.
 
Cypress said:
I think the illegal Crimean invasion needs to be challenged. It is not sovereign Russian territory by legitimate means.

It is provocative.

But the Kremlin has no one to blame but themselves.
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It wasn't ' an invasion ' at all, was it. Nearly all Crimeans saw themselves as Russian to start with and almost 100% of them voted- by means of legal referendum- to re-associate with their mother country.
 
Bill said:
Russia & the UK have been on sides, for & against- going on 500 years and much of that involved UK attempts rein in/hamper Russian ambitions & expansion..

Personally makes no difference to me who has the Crimea, but Russia did take it in 1783 from the Mongols & Turks who nominally controlled it & the slave trade in Ukrainians, Russians etc...

I don't know of any bitching the UK did @ the time..

We have enough problems & shit to deal w/ already don't we?? :palm:
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Wow, so you've never heard of the Crimean War?? That's truly unbelievable!

https://www.history.com/news/8-things-you-may-not-know-about-the-crimean-war
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Tehran ceases to exist. The Iranians are not crazy enough to use a nuke where it can be traced to them. They want nukes for the same reason Israel wanted them: so no one would attack them conventionally. The Arab-Israeli wars became ceased the moment Israel got nukes. That's why terrorism became the tool of the Islamacists.
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true on getting nukes. we saw what happened when Qaddafi gave up his -they killed him
My question was Iran explicitly though - a Shi'a theocracy that embraced the hidden Iman
so Im not 100% sure they wouldnt use it. viva Armageddon
 
moon said:
It wasn't ' an invasion ' at all, was it. Nearly all Crimeans saw themselves as Russian to start with and almost 100% of them voted- by means of legal referendum- to re-associate with their mother country.
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1991 Crimean sovereignty referendum as well. Crimea is Russian
 
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