Finland abandons neutrality and will move to immediately join NATO
https://www.npr.org/live-updates/russia-ukraine-finland-nato-2022-05-12
https://www.npr.org/live-updates/russia-ukraine-finland-nato-2022-05-12
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Putin's massive blunder just got worse
- Thread starter Cypress
- Start date
If Finland and Sweden join NATO, it’s on Russia
Putin has failed to contain the military alliance, bringing it much closer to his borders instead.
Russian President Vladimir Putin has repeatedly pointed to NATO’s encroachment on his country’s borders as a reason for invading Ukraine. But if that were, indeed, his true aim, then Putin has failed spectacularly.
Not only have NATO countries moved tens of thousands of troops closer to Russia’s border in response to his invasion and agreed to send tens of billions worth of arms to Ukraine, they are also now about to welcome Finland and Sweden as new members, bringing NATO that much closer to Russia.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.eu/article/finland-sweden-join-nato-russia/amp/
Putin has failed to contain the military alliance, bringing it much closer to his borders instead.
Russian President Vladimir Putin has repeatedly pointed to NATO’s encroachment on his country’s borders as a reason for invading Ukraine. But if that were, indeed, his true aim, then Putin has failed spectacularly.
Not only have NATO countries moved tens of thousands of troops closer to Russia’s border in response to his invasion and agreed to send tens of billions worth of arms to Ukraine, they are also now about to welcome Finland and Sweden as new members, bringing NATO that much closer to Russia.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.eu/article/finland-sweden-join-nato-russia/amp/
Finland abandons neutrality and will move to immediately join NATO
https://www.npr.org/live-updates/russia-ukraine-finland-nato-2022-05-12
On Twitter, I followed someone who spent years arguing that Putin was an imbecile and that all those who imagined he was playing some kind of fifth-dimensional chess were seeing things that just weren't there. I wasn't sure, but with every passing month, that looks more and more prescient. Putin miscalculated horribly. And I don't just mean in terms of him bringing untold suffering on the people of Russia and Ukraine, which I'm sure he doesn't care about even a little. I mean in terms of him bringing about negative consequences on things he does care about. People used to be afraid of conventional Russian forces, and now they look like a poorly organized, badly trained rabble with garbage morale and an arsenal of rusting, obsolete equipment. Countries like Finland used to proudly hold themselves aloof of NATO, but now there's a move to get in under that umbrella. Meanwhile, decades of effort to diversify Russia's economy so it could be sanctions-proof have been rolled back in months, as those sanctions have cut Russia off from the equipment and expertise it needs to keep those industries going strong. Every passing month he looks more and more like an idiot.
Russia adds it's nukes to Finland's border..isn't this fun?
when does the world end?
Putin could have avoided the expansion of the NATO alliance's membership, military power, and solidarity if he had not invaded Ukraine, shelled their cities to rubble, and committed shocking war crimes.
ExpressLane
Verified User
So you think Russia could hit them before?Russia adds it's nukes to Finland's border..isn't this fun?
when does the world end?
I agree the invasion was a terrible mistake and costly to the people of UkrainePutin could have avoided the expansion of the NATO alliance's membership, military power, and solidarity if he had not invaded Ukraine, shelled their cities to rubble, and committed shocking war crimes.
It also hurt Russian economy.
But that doesnt justify the west's ( in particular the USA) going ALL IN on "victory" and "degrading" the Russian military
There is such thing as a "proportional response' and we blew past that long ago
proximity mattersSo you think Russia could hit them before?
The USSR had ICBMs that could hit the USA- but when the USSR put them in Cuba it became an existential threat
to the bolded. Only because Ukraine is a US proxy war with top knotch NATO weapons arrayed against RussiaPeople used to be afraid of conventional Russian forces, and now they look like a poorly organized, badly trained rabble with garbage morale and an arsenal of rusting, obsolete equipment. .
So you think Russia could hit them before?
exactly - this is theatre. they already were in range
proximity matters
The USSR had ICBMs that could hit the USA- but when the USSR put them in Cuba it became an existential threat
hyperbole is noted
500 km vs 1400 km is not terribly significant in nuke warfare in terms of existential threats
it's less then 1/2 the time for a cruise missile to be detected. making it even more instable to see an attackhyperbole is noted
500 km vs 1400 km is not terribly significant in nuke warfare in terms of existential threats
it adds needless tension
ExpressLane
Verified User
Agreed the reaction time is less but I don't think Finland has nukes to release before a Russian nukes hits them. So its a saber rattling move. Disturbing yes but Russia invading Finland would be disturbing as well.proximity matters
The USSR had ICBMs that could hit the USA- but when the USSR put them in Cuba it became an existential threat
If Finland joins NATO Article 5 is in play - other NATO states would be forced to respond even if Finland could notAgreed the reaction time is less but I don't think Finland has nukes to release before Russia hits nukes hits them. So its a saber rattling move.
yes it's saber rattleng as well - but there is so much of that now that we have made Ukraine into a proxy war against Russia, it's just more living on a knife edge. no good can come of it
it's less then 1/2 the time for a cruise missile to be detected. making it even more instable to see an attack
it adds needless tension
it's hyperbole - we are already talking 3 minute flight times or less
ExpressLane
Verified User
True but we can't have the Russian bear wandering around Europe consuming whoever it pleases. The same could have been said about Germany in the 1930'sIf Finland joins NATO Article 5 is in play - other NATO states would be forced to respond even if Finland could not
yes it's saber rattleng as well - but there is so much of that now that we have made Ukraine into a proxy war against Russia, it's just more living on a knife edge. no good can come of it
ExpressLane
Verified User
They could just strap a nuke on a hypersonic missile and the effect would be the same.If Finland joins NATO Article 5 is in play - other NATO states would be forced to respond even if Finland could not
yes it's saber rattleng as well - but there is so much of that now that we have made Ukraine into a proxy war against Russia, it's just more living on a knife edge. no good can come of it
no it's not the same at all. Hitler had a disorganized Europe weary of war to go after.True but we can't have the Russian bear wandering around Europe consuming whoever it pleases. The same could have been said about Germany in the 1930's
Putin has a united NATO to check any expansionist dreams
yes hypersonics are the new norm along with drone warfareThey could just strap a nuke on a hypersonic missile and the effect would be the same.
all of this adds to instability.
Finland joining NATO is not good for peace/ Russia moving nukes isn't either.
my point is dont make it any worse with other unstable postures
ExpressLane
Verified User
Would you rather we just roll over and let Russia own half of Europe? Russia invading Ukraine isn't good for peace either.yes hypersonics are the new norm along with drone warfare
all of this adds to instability.
Finland joining NATO is not good for peace/ Russia moving nukes isn't either.
my point is dont make it any worse with other unstable postures