The Cold Math of Securing Schools

so why are you stupid enough to make an illegal fire exit when you could make a legal one........is it because you're a demmycrat?........they've been making fire doors since I was a kid......


remember these?....
SAR_80Series%203_cmyk%20(1).jpg

Look ma, no key on that door. Just like I have been saying.
 
lol......you've been saying the doors had to be locked with a key for several pages.......that's how we knew you were a fucking idiot......

Your reading comprehension really sucks. You might want to get tested for Alzheimer's. Rune claimed the doors were keyed from both sides. I said there is not a key on the inside just as your picture shows.
 
Your reading comprehension really sucks. You might want to get tested for Alzheimer's. Rune claimed the doors were keyed from both sides. I said there is not a key on the inside just as your picture shows.

I have Rune on ignore.....all I have seen are posts from you claiming we can't have security doors because they need keys.....I see YOU being a fucking idiot....
 
After a school shooter kills a bunch of kids, people intent on diverting attention from gun control have a tendency to focus on enhancing physical security at schools, by way of armed guards, armored access points, etc. It can seem heartless to focus on the cost of those things when kids are dying.... but that's what I'm going to do.

First, installing one armed guard at a school is unlikely to do anything. Someone intent on mass slaughter could simply walk up to the guard and gun him down before he even had his gun unholstered. It would just be another body on the pile. If you're going to make any real difference, you'd need at least two on duty, with a multiple-checkpoint setup, such that if you attack the guard at the first checkpoint, the second checkpoint gets locked down by a second guard (probably manning a security camera feed some distance away) and the attacker can't get in. That's the kind of setup you see at secure facilities.

So, what would it cost, per school, to have a setup like that? Assuming you're not comfortable with untrained minimum-wage goons, let's say $50,000 per guard per year, minimum, fully loaded (counting benefits). And let's say 2.5 guards per school (some extra to cover absences). There are 130,930 K-12 schools in the US. So, about $16.4 billion per year, plus however much you need for those security cameras, remote locking doors, and other retrofits. We'll conservatively estimate those are fairly cheap and the whole thing can cost just $20 billion per year.

OK. And how many lives will that save? Let's give it every benefit of the doubt and imagine it's perfectly effective -- that these guards manage to completely stop school shootings, while never accidentally shooting the wrong person. So, let's say about 36 lives saved per year, average:

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2019/07/us/ten-years-of-school-shootings-trnd/

OK, that's a cost-per-life-saved of about $556 million per life.

Now, you might be tempted to say a life is infinitely valuable, so that's well worth it. But, as a practical matter, that's just not how budgeting is done in other contexts.

For example, in the Bush years, if a proposed EPA rule cost over $3.7 million per anticipated life saved (e.g., efforts to reduce arsenic in drinking water), it was considered too expensive to be worth it. With Clinton, they were more liberal about it and put the threshold at $6.1 million:

https://www.americanprogress.org/ar...-costs-and-benefits-of-cost-benefit-analysis/

Obviously, even the higher of those numbers is VASTLY below the $556 million level we're talking about here.

Some studies suggest that any regulation that costs more than, say, $15 million per life saved will actually hurt income levels enough that such a regulation will indirectly cost more lives than it will save:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1465-7295.1999.tb01450.x
https://www.semanticscholar.org/pap...rall/d2010e118e2edcd1e2e0e99227af6047b66355e6

For example, people whose take-home pay is lower thanks to funding all this extra school security may skimp on vehicle maintenance or healthcare, and that will end up costing more lives than you're saving.

Some studies have put the number even lower, around $12 million:

https://law.vanderbilt.edu/files/archive/215_Value_of_Life_Legal_Contexts.pdf

The gap we're talking about is huge, between that hypothetical $12M-$15M/life point of being counter-productive, and the $556M/life we're talking about here.

Even if you think you can get all that benefit with only half as many guards with half the other security spending, we're still talking almost twenty times the cost-per-life-saved that studies say you can have before the cost is actually driving deaths UP indirectly.

Even if you're in the camp where money should be no object when it comes to saving the lives of kids, then spend those same billions on bigger subsidies for childhood healthcare, for instance, or regulations to make vehicles safer, or spending to make roads safer (more streetlights and guardrails, better signage), or enhanced childhood nutrition, etc.; you'd save many, many more lives of children:

https://books.google.com/books?id=L...ge&q="cost per life saved" guardrails&f=false

So, the approach of trying to prevent school shootings by way of more physical security is almost certainly a loser. Any spending in that area is likely to have a cost-per-life-saved so huge that we'd do better spending the same money any number of other places.... or not spending it at all.

So, let's say about 36 lives saved per year, average:




So not worth it..got it

And u just admitted it's rare at just 36 lives...so they have a higher risk of getting hit by a car going to school than shot by an AR-15 in class
 
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So, let's say about 36 lives saved per year, average:




So not worth it..got it

And u just admitted it's rare at just 36 lives...so they have a higher risk of getting hit by a car going to school than shot by an AR-15 in class

Yes, if the only case for gun control were an occasional AR-15 in a classroom, it would be a fairly weak case. After you consider that most of those killings won't have been with an assault weapon, and that even very tight gun control isn't going to be perfectly effective, we might save five or ten lives per year by way of an assault weapons ban reducing school shooting deaths, if we're lucky. Probably the political effort and expense would do more good invested elsewhere.

The stronger case for gun control comes in more common cases. There's more like 45,000 gun deaths per year in the US. Almost none of those are AR-15's in classrooms. They're things like handguns in domestic disputes and crimes, accidental shootings, suicides, and so on. Gun control could realistically save thousands of Americans per year, if we can cut back on those kinds of deaths.
 
Yes, if the only case for gun control were an occasional AR-15 in a classroom, it would be a fairly weak case. After you consider that most of those killings won't have been with an assault weapon, and that even very tight gun control isn't going to be perfectly effective, we might save five or ten lives per year by way of an assault weapons ban reducing school shooting deaths, if we're lucky. Probably the political effort and expense would do more good invested elsewhere.

The stronger case for gun control comes in more common cases. There's more like 45,000 gun deaths per year in the US. Almost none of those are AR-15's in classrooms. They're things like handguns in domestic disputes and crimes, accidental shootings, suicides, and so on. Gun control could realistically save thousands of Americans per year, if we can cut back on those kinds of deaths.

How many of those were committed by people out on parole... Killed someone when they should have been in jail

A good first start in saving lives would be keep people locked up for their full sentence... Get 10 years in prison do 10 years not out in 3
 
How many of those were committed by people out on parole... Killed someone when they should have been in jail

No idea. But it's worth remembering that we already have far and away the highest incarceration rate of any nation in the world, and it hasn't exactly kept us safe. Even as we lock up a huge portion of our population, we suffer the worst murder rates in the developed world.

Even within the US, the tendency is for those areas that lock more people up to have more of a problem with violence. For example, Louisiana locks up a larger share of its population than any other state (0.98% of the population). Massachusetts locks up the smallest percentage (0.25% of the population). Louisiana has our nation's second-highest murder rate (20.5, second only to fellow prison-junkie Mississippi). Massachusetts has our fifth-lowest murder rate (despite being highly urbanized). I'm just not seeing evidence that would suggest locking more people up for longer is going to help.

In fact, it may actually hurt us. We may be taking mildly troubled people and locking them up in prisons with psychopaths, where they get disconnected from the civilizing influences of their families and the outside world, and habituated to violence. Then, when they eventually get out, we've basically turned them into killers. Maybe a good start would be to emulate what Massachusetts is doing, or other low-murder/low-incarceration areas, where the focus is on rehabilitation rather than retribution. Maybe we need to see prisons more as a last resort, and recognize they can turn people into murderers.
 
Guns are made to kill, sold to kill and used to kill. America is blood-crazed. Either ban them or get on with the killing and stfu.
 
There would be thousands of volunteers who would work for zero wages.

Your plan reminds me of Arpaio's plan. He setup a "posse" of white criminals looking for a pardon, and had them "patrol" the area around Hispanic majority schools. Many of the criminals were convicted of child molesting.
 
No idea. But it's worth remembering that we already have far and away the highest incarceration rate of any nation in the world, and it hasn't exactly kept us safe. Even as we lock up a huge portion of our population, we suffer the worst murder rates in the developed world.

Even within the US, the tendency is for those areas that lock more people up to have more of a problem with violence. For example, Louisiana locks up a larger share of its population than any other state (0.98% of the population). Massachusetts locks up the smallest percentage (0.25% of the population). Louisiana has our nation's second-highest murder rate (20.5, second only to fellow prison-junkie Mississippi). Massachusetts has our fifth-lowest murder rate (despite being highly urbanized). I'm just not seeing evidence that would suggest locking more people up for longer is going to help.

In fact, it may actually hurt us. We may be taking mildly troubled people and locking them up in prisons with psychopaths, where they get disconnected from the civilizing influences of their families and the outside world, and habituated to violence. Then, when they eventually get out, we've basically turned them into killers. Maybe a good start would be to emulate what Massachusetts is doing, or other low-murder/low-incarceration areas, where the focus is on rehabilitation rather than retribution. Maybe we need to see prisons more as a last resort, and recognize they can turn people into murderers.

U do know black males are 6% of the population and commit over 50% of the murders

Do u not see a problem with that...maybe a culture thing
 
lots of glass in banks as well.

They used to make banks hard to break into, but they now do the opposite. The problem is the bank robber would be in the bank, with hostages, and it would be difficult for the police to retake the bank. Now banks are designed to be very open, and easy to break into.

It is the exact opposite of what you are arguing.
 
at least. long enough for defensive response and more significantly, long enough that it impacts the criminal's plan which irritates them and impacts their effectiveness.

It might delay a criminal's plans... And might delay a police officer's plans. It will almost certainly delay firefighters, and children's evacuation plans.
 
I've never heard of a security guard making $50k. Look at listings on Indeed. Guys with prior military experience might earn $15/hr if lucky. Unarmed guards might earn $11/hr.

That is about right for a security guard who just stands there. If he investigates things, or something, he could get higher. Texas governments has been delaying paychecks recently, so there might be months he would not get paid at all.
 
It might delay a criminal's plans... And might delay a police officer's plans. It will almost certainly delay firefighters, and children's evacuation plans.

In this case a locked steel door with a saved lives because police were right on his ass.... He would have been running around outside trying to figure out how to get in
 
We can have locked doors on high-rise wealthy apartment buildings in New York City etc without the worry over the delay of firefighters.. but we can't have locked doors on schools
 
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It might delay a criminal's plans... And might delay a police officer's plans. It will almost certainly delay firefighters, and children's evacuation plans.


We have thousands of apartment buildings with locked security doors they seem to not have a problem with it being a delay to the firefighters

AOC probably lives in one.... I haven't heard her whine about a possible delay of the firefighters getting in
 
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