Da Jews, Da Jews.
Russians react to Vlad's mobilization order
- Thread starter Cypress
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Da Jews, Da Jews.
I know that >
I specifically posted a video with a range of viewpoints because it would be dishonest to pretend everyone in Russia actively opposes the war
moon
Satire for Sanity
' Dishonest ' ?
Haw, haw, haw, haw, haw............................haw, haw..............................haw.
I would say that half of the folks against it had no compelling reason to be against it other than they didn't want to. One lady just mentioned she had kids as if that is some moral value, and then platitudes about "political games".
The reality is many folks do not like being compelled to serve in the military and those folks you believe are "moral" while those who do want to serve you say serve up "platitudes"...
I say both sides served up platitudes. Like most folks they start with an opinion and then try to fit an argument around it.
So by carefully reading your cut and paste, we find that there was, in fact, a map and by the final rounds of negotiating, the map part had been settled.
The part Arafat wouldn't budge on wasn't the map or division of territories, but rather the recognition of the Israeli state.
Nice of you to admit I openly and transparently choose a video to represent all view points, after you composed your 'gotcha' post.
The lady with the kids indicated she didn't want her family to be pawns of any political games. That is a more compelling moral position than anything that pro war rubes said. And what she openly said could even be considered risky in Putin's police state.
The other anti war people said they would rather go to prison than fight for Putin's government, or that war is not the answer to resolving problems in the 21st century.
It is actually amazing that you would insinuate those answers do not have a stronger moral foundation than the guy who claimed to be an Uber patriot, or the guy who says he just trusts whatever Putin says
moon
Satire for Sanity
' No map ' means ' No map '.
Barak’s foreign minister, Shlomo Ben-Ami and Arafat were, therefore, in agreement. The ' deal ' stank. Quit trying to blame Arafat for rejecting your stinking deal.
Oh yes- and get out of Palestine.
No, it means no second map.
The Palestinians will never be offered a deal that good ever again.
Israeli $$$ used to build the Palestinian economy, free travel between the territories, recognition of the Palestinian state, land exchanges within Israel.
Never will be offered again. That was the best chance the Palestinians had to compromise.
Instead, they launched an intifada that ended any chance of peace with Israel and statehood.
There will never, ever be a Palestinian state now because of the intifada.
moon
Satire for Sanity
The first map being rejected- or it would have become essential to further discussion.
The Zionist experiment will fail. Israel is an apartheid state , barely legitimate in law. Ethnic cleansing is illegal. The squats are illegal under the Geneva Conventions. You do not have a moral leg to stand upon.
Palestine will gain full recognition with the coming Latino revolution in US government. The age of the Christian Zionist hasn't long left to run.
Arafat was a good leader. He would never have rejected an honest deal. The Israelis are, notoriously, underhand.
It wasn't rejected, and it wasn't what Arafat killed the deal over; that was recognition of Israel's statehood.
Arafat didn't want to recognize Israel's right to exist even though Israel would have recognized a Palestinian state and built it up with Israeli money.
As I said before, the Palestinians will never be offered a deal that good again; Israel is just gonna run out the clock until all the displaced Palestinians die off. Their kids will not have any claim to anything in Israel.
Oh, I completely fucking agree that Israel is an apartheid state, and that they should withdraw from the lands they occupied in 1967, but the Palestinians must also recognize Israel's right to exist. The compromise in 2000 was the best deal anyone could get, and now because of the intifada, that deal will never be offered again.
Arafat was a terrible leader who killed any chance the Palestinians had at statehood by launching the intifada.
Are the Palestinians any closer to statehood today than they were in 2000? HELL FUCKING NO.
moon
Satire for Sanity
Get a grip. The Palestinian state was recognized by the UN in 2012- and is recognized by 138 countries today.
Your home-cooked Camp David narrative is a desperate nonsense. Thanks to Arafat the Palestinian resistance continues today and full recognition is simply a matter of time.
Israelis would be well advised to fall back behind the lines ascribed to them by UNGAR 181- because they are not entitled to one square inch more.
UN Recognizes Palestinian stae
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/un-general-assembly-votes-to-recognize-palestinian-state/
If there was a vote to recognize Israel today the fascist entity would be dissolved.
Yeah, but not by the one that actually matters here.
They could have had exactly what the UN general assembly resolved 12 years earlier PLUS Israeli $$ to build their economy had they accepted the proposal.
So they're no closer to statehood now than before the intifada...in fact, they're farther away from it because their violence didn't achieve any of the goals they thought it would.
Nice of you to admit I openly and transparently choose a video to represent all view points, after you composed your 'gotcha' post.
The lady with the kids indicated she didn't want her family to be pawns of any political games. That is a more compelling moral position than anything that pro war rubes said. And what she openly said could even be considered risky in Putin's police state.
The other anti war people said they would rather go to prison than fight for Putin's government, or that war is not the answer to resolving problems in the 21st century.
It is actually amazing that you would insinuate those answers do not have a stronger moral foundation than the guy who claimed to be an Uber patriot, or the guy who says he just trusts whatever Putin says
Considering my first post in this thread was not directed at you and was a simple observation based on what folks were saying in the thread, your sudden interest in me 'admitting' something that I never suggested otherwise has missed any target that existed.
My second post was more towards you because you had quoted me, and I responded to your opinion of "platitudes" being displayed only by those who agreed with the war. You know the ones that agreed to put their life on the line. As I stated. You want one to be a "moral" stand and the other to be empty. Both are empty until the decision becomes real. We do know from our Vietnam war that there are a number that will leave and/or choose prison before showing up, but we also know that many who do not really want the war will show up and do their duty...
Now, we can start getting into the agenda of the folks who created the video. Basically, it's like watching Jimmy Fallon ask questions of folks "on the street"... While they are on the street, if they do not speak to the agenda of the person making the video they do not get included in the editors cuts. You know those videos that make it look like all college kids are stupid and don't know who the President is and other nonsense, they make for uncompelling (but funny) television, but it does not give us any insight into what college kids actually know... and in this case it gives us no real idea of how folks in Russia are thinking, nor does it show that those that agree with you are taking a particularly moral stance while the others who are willing to put their lives on the line are not.
None of this should be used to assume that I agree with Russia. I do not. Russia signed an agreement when they took the nuclear weapons to help keep Ukraine safe. Every step they made is wrong. I simply point out that platitudes abound on both sides of this argument, including the "I will go to jail" stuff. Until that choice is real it is all platitudes.
moon
Satire for Sanity
The Palestinians have massive support around the world. They would not have if they had succumbed to the prosemitic nonsense of Camp David. There was not even a map. Israel has reneged on all of its ' promises ' anyway. The Palestinian state is recognized , supported- and the Internet has overcome the falsehoods dished up by the Zionist media over decades- although you are still trying to peddle them.
Today, every Zionist crime is recorded and stored towards the day when Israel's war criminals meet Justice. The evidence is massive. Only US complicity keeps Zionism alive.
OK, but again, that doesn't matter here.
What matters is whether they recognize Israel's right to exist, which was the point Arafat refused to concede in 2000.
He wanted a Palestinian State, propped up with Israeli money, but he didn't want to have to recognize Israel's right to exist.
So he launched an intifada, thinking indiscriminate suicide bombings would force Israel back to the table, but all it did was strengthen Israel's resolve and result in more Palestinians dying from Israeli airstrikes. And it also elevated Hamas and legitimized them, and that's what led to internal Palestinian strife between Hamas (who ended up in control of Gaza), Fatah (who ended up in control of East Jerusalem), and the Palestinian Authority (who ended up in control of the West Bank). So not only did the intifada kill any chance of statehood, it also led to a Palestinian civil war that made it impossible for peace talks to occur because of who controlled each Palestinian territory.
Had Arafat accepted the 2000 proposal, Palestine would be thriving alongside Israel as beacons in the Middle East.
All those people killed by bombings and airstrikes would still be alive.
Palestine would have been transformed by Israeli money into a working, modern economy, and they would have been free to go between Gaza and the WB.
Now, because of the intifada, they cannot.
moon
Satire for Sanity
Your canards are becoming tedious;
Naturally, they will never recognize a ' Jewish State of Israel '. Nobody in their right mind would. 25% of Israeli citizens are not Jews. Nobody would ever recognize an ' Amish State of Pennsylvania '
When asked to recognize the unilateral declaration of a ' Jewish State ', the president crossed out ' Jewish state ' and wrote 'State of Israel ' in its place. There will never be a ' Jewish state '- particularly as many Jews don't want one. All Jews are not theft-crazed, apartheid- practicing, ethnic-cleansing fascists.
So where in your article does it say when they recognized the Israeli state? Because I can't find that instance or quote in your piece.
Also, Abbass is just the head of the PA, he's not the head of Hamas (who controls Gaza), nor is he the head of Fatah (Who controls East Jerusalem).
Abbass represents the Palestinians in the West Bank only because that's all the PA controls; the PA does not control Gaza or E. Jerusalem.
moon
Satire for Sanity
Abbas is a US/Israeli plant. He will soon be gone and Palestine can renew the country-wide election process which Hamas won by a landslide in 2006.
Incidentally- there is nothing that you can tell me about the illegal occupation of Palestine- so do me a favor and keep schtum.
Everyone is a plant according to you.
Abbass was elected leader of the Palestinian Authority, not the elected leader of Hamas or Fatah.
So only one of the three factions in control has floated the idea of recognizing Israel, but not formally.
The intifada caused that fraction among the Palestinians, splitting them and denying Israel a legitimate negotiating partner.