Reality check on electric cars

Question : Can you provide deifinitons and examine if there is any general consensus as to what a subsidy is and what constitutes it?

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AI Summary:

There is actually a very strong cross-institutional consensus around the core definition of a government subsidy.
Across:
  • international organizations like the World Trade Organization and Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development,
  • national governments,
  • academic economics,
  • dictionaries,
  • encyclopedias,
there is broad agreement that a subsidy involves:
A government providing a financial benefit or economic advantage to a person, business, industry, or activity.
The central concept is remarkably consistent.
Here are the major accepted formulations and how they line up.

1. WTO definition (most internationally authoritative legal definition)​

The World Trade Organization definition is probably the most widely cited formal definition globally because it is embedded in international trade law.
The WTO states a subsidy exists where there is:
  • a financial contribution
  • by a government or public body
  • that confers a benefit.
Citation

Examples explicitly listed by the WTO include:
  • grants,
  • loans,
  • loan guarantees,
  • tax credits,
  • fiscal incentives,
  • government provision of goods/services,
  • government purchases.
Citation

This is important because it shows that:
  • subsidies are not limited to direct cash payments,
  • forgone tax revenue is widely recognized as subsidy-like support in mainstream institutional definitions.

2. OECD definition​

The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development largely follows the WTO framework.
The OECD defines fossil-fuel support/subsidies as:
  • direct budgetary transfers,
  • tax expenditures,
  • policies providing a benefit or preference.
Citation

The OECD explicitly says its subsidy definition follows the WTO SCM Agreement.
So there is strong institutional alignment between:
  • WTO,
  • OECD,
  • many national trade agencies.


3. Government definitions​

Government agencies in multiple countries use nearly identical language.
For example, the U.S. Department of Commerce states:
A subsidy is:
a “financial contribution” by a government which provides a benefit.
Citation

Canada’s government, as one of many examples, similarly defines subsidies as:
  • grants,
  • loans,
  • tax credits,
  • other financial contributions
    that confer a benefit.
Citation

Again, these track directly back to WTO terminology.

4. Encyclopedia definitions​

Encyclopaedia Britannica defines a subsidy as:
a direct or indirect payment, economic concession, or privilege granted by a government to promote a public objective.
Notably, Britannica includes:
  • direct payments,
  • indirect assistance,
  • concessions,
  • privileges.

That is broader than some narrow legal definitions but still consistent with the core idea of government-conferred economic advantage.

5. Dictionary and academic/economic definitions​

Financial and economics dictionaries are also highly consistent.
The Farlex Financial Dictionary defines subsidies as:
financial assistance provided by a government to another entity, usually a business or industry.
It also explicitly recognizes:
  • direct subsidies,
  • indirect subsidies,
  • tax write-offs,
  • rent rebates,
  • favorable loans.
Citation

Academic economics literature and national accounting systems similarly treat subsidies as:
  • transfers,
  • tax concessions,
  • or government measures intended to reduce production costs or alter market outcomes.



Areas of broad agreement​

Across almost all serious institutional definitions, these are generally accepted as subsidies or subsidy-like support:
Policy TypeBroad Consensus?
Direct cash grantsYes
Government loans below market ratesYes
Loan guaranteesYes
Tax credits/exemptions targeted to industriesYes
Government assumption of liabilitiesYes
Government-provided goods/services below market valueYes
Export incentivesYes
Production incentivesYes



The key thing that is not disputed​


What is not seriously disputed among mainstream institutions is that the following are subsidies:


  • direct government payments,
  • targeted tax breaks,
  • favorable loans,
  • loan guarantees,
  • government financial contributions conferring economic benefit.

That consensus exists across:


  • WTO,
  • OECD,
  • U.S. government,
  • Various government definitions (see Canada example),
  • encyclopedias,
  • mainstream economics.
 
My son is travelling Michigan for work. He drives an EV and finds that there are very few problems. The fast chargers charge up to 80 percent in 15 minutes. Go into the station, take a leak and you are ready to go. Righties are welded to the past and their dishonesty..
That was a beautifully crafted anecdote. Well done. How do the slow chargers work? That's all there are within a huge radius of where I live.

You still have not accounted for the fact that our infrastructure cannot support the kind of demand that would make your "anecdote" normal.
 
Terry is repeating his debunked lie he CONTINUALLY repeats that only EV companies and not ICE nor Oil And Gas have got gov't subsidies of all forms.
... then why did you not drop a single concrete example and simply blow his claim out of the water, or two examples and send him packing for good?

What Terry hates about AI or google is HOW GOOD they are at exposing his lies in summary fashion
False. AI assistants are trained with leftist disinformation; they spew back the crap burned into them.

AI is not authoritative. Your lack of any concrete examples chops your argument off at the knees.

1. Oil & Gas Subsidies Are Real and Longstanding​

Yet you can't identify a single recipient of any real, longstanding subsidy.


The federal government provided Chrysler with:
  • $1.5 billion in federally guaranteed loans
The Federal government guaranteed loans; it didn't make any loans. Ergo, there was no subsidy there.


3. Indirect Subsidies to ICE Transportation Are Enormous​

Now you are trying to claim public infrastructure as a subsidy. You should have called booooooolsch't and gotten a better AI assistant.


4. EV Subsidies Exist​


It is true that EVs receive:
  • consumer tax credits
  • battery manufacturing incentives
  • charging infrastructure support
This is the only concrete example you provided, and we already know that EVs are subsidized.
 
There are several very clear cases where the U.S. government directly supported oil & gas production and ICE transportation.


Here are some of the strongest examples:




1. The Strategic Petroleum Reserve (SPR)​

Not a subsidy.
...deleted AI slop...

2. Military Protection of Global Oil Shipping Lanes​

Not a subsidy.
...deleted AI slop...

3. Interstate Highway System​

Not an oil subsidy.
...deleted AI slop...

4. 2008–2009 Auto Industry Bailout​

Illegal, and also a major factor in causing the economic depression of Obama/Biden that lasted nine years. Not an oil subsidy.
...deleted AI slop...

5. Federal Oil & Gas Leasing at Favorable Terms​

Not a subsidy.
...deleted AI slop...

6. Taxpayer-Funded Cleanup of Abandoned Wells​

Not an oil subsidy. What taxpayer funded cleanup of abandoned wells?
...deleted A I slop...

7. Ethanol Mandates and Fuel Support Programs​

Ethanol is not oil. This bit of fascism is by Democrats.
...deleted AI slop...

Why This Matters in the EV Debate​

Direct subsidies for EVs include tax breaks if you drive an EV, government programs to build and maintain charging stations, government mandates on vehicle manufacturers to build EVs, and Government Motors (formerly General Motors).

...deleted AI slop...

Substituting AI for your brain is a bad idea, Kewpie.
 
it is explained there. Read it.
RAAA
Again explained. You saying 'others things travel through there' does not negate how tax payers funds are being used to benefit Oil and gas. Saying 'but other things benefit too' is not a rebuttal.
RAAA. Yes it does, and yes...it's a rebuttal.
Again, what you say does not mean that tax payers were not spent in ways that massively benefitted the oil and gas industry too. Two thigns can be true at the same time
Special pleading fallacy. Attempted proof by redefinition.
That was specifically about ICE vehicles, which is another industry you deny wrongly has received subsidies while stating EV's do.
He is correct, Kewpie.
No its not. If the land has a market value or use or restrictions for use that they allow Oil and Gas to get access to at lower than market rates that is a subsidy.
The land has no market value, Kewpie. It is BLM operated.
If i rent my house for $1000 a week but let my kid stay there for $100 i am subsidizing him even though i can "charge what i charge".
Attempted proof by contrivance. False equivalence fallacy.
Saying they "charge what they charge" does not prevent it being a subsidy and Oil and Gas is consistently getting this subsidy.
Not a subsidy, Kewpie.
Does not matter. If the Oil and gas companies that dumped that stuff got to keep the profits and the tax payers got the bill they got subsidized.
'Dumping stuff'?? What tax payer got a bill for an oil drilling lease?
You saying 'there was no law or legal way to force them to clean it up' does not change the fact they were subsidized. Subsidized just means the tax payer directly or indirectly ends up providing the company money or picking up their costs.
What taxpayer is paying for an oil drilling lease?
Yes I through in the EV's as an extra as that is an area where your ignorance is the same as you claim EV's get subsidies but ICE vehicles historically never did.
He is correct.

EV's receive direct subsidies through government programs to build charging stations, government control of Government Motors, and government tax incentives for EVs.
 
Question : Can you provide deifinitons and examine if there is any general consensus as to what a subsidy is and what constitutes it?

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AI Summary:
...deleted AI slop...

Apparently, you can't provide a summary. All you can do is cut and paste AI slop.
 
Oil companies get the right to buy and drill on government land at very low prices. They have auctions for the drilling rights. Once they buy the land, it becomes a lucrative tax write-off. Oil companies have millions of acres that they have not touched.
 
Oil companies get the right to buy and drill on government land at very low prices. They have auctions for the drilling rights. Once they buy the land, it becomes a lucrative tax write-off. Oil companies have millions of acres that they have not touched.
i have quoted that amongst many other subsidized Big Oil gets. Terry hand waves them all away and says if any of us got discounted land from the gov't that would not be something that subsidized our lives and thus it is not a subsidy for business when they get it. He argues gov't can do whatever they want with the land, despite it being taxpayer land.
 
i have quoted that amongst many other subsidized Big Oil gets. Terry hand waves them all away and says if any of us got discounted land from the gov't that would not be something that subsidized our lives and thus it is not a subsidy for business when they get it. He argues gov't can do whatever they want with the land, despite it being taxpayer land.
I read about a citizen who showed up at one of the auctions and bought a parcel. They gave him hell, with threats of all kinds. Then they shut them off to the people.
 
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