Archaeology of the New Testament

[Into the Night]

Do you have evidence that the god of the universe isn't actually a rainbow unicorn?

Yes. The Universe as far as we can observe, is a random dust cloud. It has no organization overall.

 

[Into the Night]

Yes! View attachment 84760

This particular image is typical of paintings in older Christian churches across Europe. Jesus, the biggest thing in the picture, welcoming tiny people into heaven. The sinful ones are even tinier. It was down to a formula. The size of the object was set by it's importance in it's relationship to God.

This random image does nothing to answer the question asked by ZenMode, as ridiculous a question as it is.

 

[Melchizedek=Tecumseh]

This particular image is typical of paintings in older Christian churches across Europe. Jesus, the biggest thing in the picture, welcoming tiny people into heaven. The sinful ones are even tinier. It was down to a formula. The size of the object was set by it's importance in it's relationship to God.

This random image does nothing to answer the question asked by ZenMode, as ridiculous a question as it is.

It's the future Harvest

 

[goat]

Where in the body is the spirit?

Psyche is the Greek word for soul, breath, spirit.

Christianity is traced back to Alexander the Great occupying Palestine bringing the word Christos meaning the anointed one. Greek pagans believed you could become anointed through knowledge or gnosis. The Nag Hammadi library was an important discovery.

 

[IBDaMann]

But, consider this:

Earth is beautiful. Whether you are on the surface looking at a forest or out across the plains, it's wide variety of vegetation, lakes, rivers, streams, oceans, and even the deserts are a feast for the eyes, or when you see it from space. Yes, it happens to be our home, but what a beautiful home it is!

Agreed. It is certainly a much more attractive place than 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of what's out there.

It is just the right size for our atmosphere to form as it has.

Of course, it wouldn't be our atmosphere if it hadn't formed as it did.

Combined with oceans, and oxygen in the atmosphere, everything is provided for to keep our temperatures in a very narrow range and to protect life from the harsh radiation of open space.

Well, yes, the atmosphere, hydrosphere, lithosphere ... and distance from the sun ... all play a significant role in that. Keen observation.

Further, the atmosphere is 'recycled', so to speak through animal life and plant life. Both are required for the other.

Agreed, as long as you don't try to sneak "organic oxygen" into the conversation.

Earth is active, but benign. It has a liquid mantle and core, producing a changing surface but without killing everyone and everything.

It's pretty neat how that works.

We are just the right distance from the center of the galaxy.

You've piqued my interest. What is "the right distance" from the center of the galaxy? Any distance sufficiently far enough away to keep from getting sucked into the black hole?

We are close enough to see many stars, but far enough that our sky isn't obscured with dust. Even the view from Earth is beautiful.

I think the view would be very similar regardless of our location in the galaxy. It would be wild to be on the very outer edge, seeing only stars of the Milky Way in only one direction, and almost nothing in the other.

It is the only planet we know of that can support life.

Considering the number of planets that we have visited, that really isn't so ominous.

Admittedly, our view is extremely limited, but at least in this solar system, no other planet has this capability.

I will give you that. I'd be willing to rule out the Kuiper Belt as well.

Life itself somehow arrived on Earth.

"Arrived" vs. "Began" ... what are words?

How did this happen? Abiogenesis would result in a cell, but what is that cell going to eat?

*If* one subscribes to abiogenesis, the "cell" is a much later stage. The first "cells" harvested energy chemically or from other radiant sources, in many cases from proto-metabolic systems that evolved out of protocells (membranes with vesicles) , all of which harvested energy in similar ways.

How would it survive the UV from the Sun?

You are making a fallacious argument, i.e. one of questions. You need to make statements, such as "No cell could possibly survive the UV from the sun" ... which would be a false statement and would render your argument false.

You can't make an argument of questions.

A cell could possibly feed off of solar UV, however the most likely answer is that the first cell(s) developed deep in the ocean, where no solar UV existed ... again, *if* one subscribes to such theories.

Did life originate on Earth (making it even MORE remarkable!),

That's the most likely scenario, given the near-impossible difficulty of interstellar travel.

or was it placed here by some intelligence?

The only issue of importance to us is whether life, when it began, however it began, adhered to the laws of thermodynamics.

Everything else is only of individual personal importance.

If the latter, could such intelligence have manipulated conditions on Earth for that life to survive and flourish?

That falls under matters of individual personal importance (belief). You, as an individual, get to fill in that blank.

In other words, it is also quite possible the Earth was supplied by an intelligence, who also manipulated conditions on Earth for that life to survive and grow.

... and by that same belief, could have simply made life conform to the existing conditions.

Does a cow know that she was bred by a rancher for a specific use?

I think they can figure that out from their own marbling.

Provided a pasture to graze in, and a barn to stay out of the weather in.

"Hey Thelma, why do we worry about the grass being greener on other sides of fences when they keep feeding us corn?"

Does a cow know that both the pasture, the barn, and the milking parlor were all provided by the rancher?

Females always presume the man is supposed to provide.

Or does it simply exist to the cow much as the Earth simply exists to us?

Humans don't view the grass being greener outside the planet.

To us, it makes no difference, but the 'designer' would know better.

That's where you are mistaken. We all imagine better possibilities in which we aren't banished to this flake of a particle, where escape is worse than the confinement.

 

[ZenMode]

Psyche is the Greek word for soul, breath, spirit.

Christianity is traced back to Alexander the Great occupying Palestine bringing the word Christos meaning the anointed one. Greek pagans believed you could become anointed through knowledge or gnosis. The Nag Hammadi library was an important discovery.

Soul and breathe are used interchangeably in the Bible also, but breathe isn't what Christians are talking about when they say soul today.

 

[ZenMode]

Yes. The Universe as far as we can observe, is a random dust cloud. It has no organization overall.

I'm not talking about the universe, itself.

 

[Cypress]

I asked if you thought if it's reasonable to believe an omnipotent and omniscient deity can somehow spontaneously come from the irrational and the immaterial.

Your question presupposes a God that Christians do not believe in. Christians do not believe in a created god. They believe in an eternal God.

Your question only applies to created gods.

You flee to the hills every time I ask you this question, and of course you never answer.

I've answered the "who created God?" query on numerous occasions.

 

[Melchizedek=Tecumseh]

Your question presupposes a God that Christians do not believe in. Christians do not believe in a created god. They believe in an eternal God.

Your question only applies to created gods.

I've answered the "who created God?" query on numerous occasions.

What does Cypress believe in?

 

[Cypress]

What does Cypress believe in?

Outside of a few years where I tried to convince myself atheism was rational, I've always believed that a lawfully organized universe was probably caused by some type of rational agency or underlying organizing principle.

 

[Cypress]

As I've said several times, we don't know how the universe came into existence and I am perfectly fine saying that rather than making up explanations and fairytale creatures.

We know that it did come into existence. And when it did, it was lawfully organized, mathematically rational, and finely tuned.

The only reason you keep using the word fairytale is because you apparently have some lingering resentment about whatever happened in your Sunday school.

See above.

Nope. I'm saying the universe is not as you describe it.

There's no paradigm. Saying "I don't know" or "Science hasn't explained" is a lot more reasonable than making up explanations and, in the case of most of the world, structuring your life around that made up explanation.

We make evaluations all the time on the basis of imperfect information, or lacking information. Your life would be paralyzed if you never made any decisions or assessments when lacking information or in light of imperfect information. Scientists speculate all the time, even in the absence of data or empirical observation.

You still haven't convinced me that the universe is as you describe it - rational, organized, etc. Of the Earth is so special, why is it designed so badly?

A random, completely unorganized universe would not be predictable or comprehensible. The fact that we can make predictions about velocity, momentum, energy proves the universe is organized and obeys mathematical principles.

If the universe were truly random and truly unorganized it would be at maximum entropy and thermal equilibrium. Which it is not.

As for life, anyone who has taken college a level cellular biology or neuroscience class cannot help but marvel at the elegance and complexity of cells and neurons.

Explain precisely what is so horrible about the Earth's design.

 

[ZenMode]

And when it did, it was lawfully organized, mathematically rational, and finely tuned.

You keep saying this as though it's a fact. It's not. It's opinion. I've already mentioned several of the flaws in the design of the universe and Earth.

The only reason you keep using the word fairytale is because you apparently have some lingering resentment about whatever happened in your Sunday school.

Or, I just don't believe all of the fictional, man-made stories about gods.

We make evaluations all the time on the basis of imperfect information, or lacking information. Your life would be paralyzed if you never made any decisions or assessments when lacking information or in light of imperfect information.

Yes, but there's no decision that needs to be made in this case. It's perfectly reasonable to say I don't know.

A random, completely unorganized universe would not be predictable or comprehensible. The fact that we can make predictions about velocity, momentum, energy proves the universe is organized and obeys mathematical principles.

I've already pointed out the flaws in the universe. The fact that physics is a thing, and can be applied to objects in the universe, doesn't mean the universe itself is organized.

If the universe were truly random and truly unorganized it would be at maximum entropy and thermal equilibrium. Which it is not.

level cellular biology or neuroscience class cannot help but marvel at the elegance and complexity of cells and neurons.
Explain precisely what is so horrible about the Earth's design.

Again, the fact that we have an understanding of physics/energy/mass etc doesn't make the universe any more organized. I could drop 100 tennis balls off the roof of my house and someone, somewhere could explain how/why they move as they do when they hit the ground. That doesn't mean the balls are organized.

 

[Cypress]

You keep saying this as though it's a fact. It's not. It's opinion.

It's not opinion. Both science and logic demonstrate there was a beginning. The BGV theorm is a mathematical proof that an expanding universe must have a finite space time boundary in the past.

Basic logic tells you that if the universe was infinitely old, today would never have gotten here.

I've already mentioned several of the flaws in the design of the universe and Earth.

Explain precisely why religious belief requires the Earth to be perfect, idyllic, completely free of risk.

Or, I just don't believe all of the fictional, man-made stories about gods.

So you just don't like the anthropomorphic gods of ancient human tradition, but you leave open the possibility that there is some kind of rational agency underlying all of physical reality.

Yes, but there's no decision that needs to be made in this case. It's perfectly reasonable to say I don't know.

I've already pointed out the flaws in the universe.

Explain precisely why religious belief requires the Earth to be perfect, idyllic, completely free of risk.

The fact that physics is a thing, and can be applied to objects in the universe, doesn't mean the universe itself is organized.

You aren't providing any explanation for the origin of mathematical laws of physics, the comprehensibility and rationality of the universe, the unlikely convergence of the universal physical constants.

Just throwing your hands up in defeat and declaring "that's just the way it is!" is not an intellectually satisfying answer.

Again, the fact that we have an understanding of physics/energy/mass etc doesn't make the universe any more organized.

You aren't providing any explanation for the origin of mathematical laws of physics, the comprehensibility and rationality of the universe, the unlikely convergence of the universal physical constants. These are legitimate philosophical questions.

Just throwing your hands up in defeat and declaring "that's just the way it is!" is not an intellectually satisfying answer.

I could drop 100 tennis balls off the roof of my house and someone, somewhere could explain how/why they move as they do when they hit the ground. That doesn't mean the balls are organized.

The atomic matter comprising the ball are highly organized and obey mathematical principles.

Why do we live in a universe where matter, motion, energy, time obey comprehensible mathematical principles.

There are many physical scenarios where a universe could just be composed of energy, plasma, hydrogen; or where atomic matter couldn't even exist.

 

[Cypress]

There is no such thing. All mathematics is invented in the human mind. Mathematics does not exist floating around in the universe!

Humans have only been around a few hundred thousand years. Our discovery of abstract mathematical principles is only a few thousand years old at best.

So your claim is that in the 13.5 billion years before humans existed the orderly mathematical principles of gravity, motion, energy did not exist.

 

[Into the Night]

It's the future Harvest

An old painting is a 'future harvest'??

 

[Into the Night]

I'm not talking about the universe, itself.

Okay. You are talking about the 'god of the universe' being a unicorn.

Few people believe God is a unicorn. Apparently you do.

 

[Into the Night]

Your question presupposes a God that Christians do not believe in. Christians do not believe in a created god. They believe in an eternal God.

Your question only applies to created gods.

I've answered the "who created God?" query on numerous occasions.

Let's just take on (other than the Christian God).

Ra, the sun god of Egypt, simply willed himself into existence. The people did not create Ra, he created himself, according to legend.
Apollo, the sun god of Greece, was a child of Zeus. The people did not create Apollo, Zeus did, according to legend.
God the Father (the Christian God), is neither created nor destroyed. He exists from forever to forever, according to legend.

ZenMode seems to have created a unicorn as God. I do not know if he has named it yet.

 

[Into the Night]

Outside of a few years where I tried to convince myself atheism was rational, I've always believed that a lawfully organized universe was probably caused by some type of rational agency or underlying organizing principle.

The Universe is not organized. It is a random dust cloud. No law.
How does any cause exist before the Universe itself?

 

[goat]

Soul and breathe are used interchangeably in the Bible also, but breathe isn't what Christians are talking about when they say soul today.

I was able to trace Christo back to 700 BCE. Greek occupation had a lot of influence on Levant and Gnosticism.

 

[Into the Night]

We know that it did come into existence. And when it did, it was lawfully organized, mathematically rational, and finely tuned.

The only reason you keep using the word fairytale is because you apparently have some lingering resentment about whatever happened in your Sunday school.

You think so? There are no fairies in the Bible. Maybe some idiot teacher told him there was.

We make evaluations all the time on the basis of imperfect information, or lacking information.

Ah, poker. A very interesting game.

Your life would be paralyzed if you never made any decisions or assessments when lacking information or in light of imperfect information.

This part is true. Your life would be paralyzed if you never made any decisions at all, regardless of the information you had.

Scientists speculate all the time, even in the absence of data or empirical observation.

Nope. Science isn't gambling. A theory of science is falsifiable.

A random, completely unorganized universe would not be predictable or comprehensible.

The Universe is not predictable or comprehensible.

The fact that we can make predictions about velocity, momentum, energy proves the universe is organized and obeys mathematical principles.

The Universe is not velocity.
The Universe is not momentum.
The Universe is not energy.
The Universe is a random dust cloud. It is not organized. No math needed.

If the universe were truly random and truly unorganized it would be at maximum entropy and thermal equilibrium. Which it is not.

The Universe is truly random and truly unorganized. It is at maximum entropy and thermal equilibrium. It is a perfect randR generator.

As for life, anyone who has taken college a level cellular biology or neuroscience class cannot help but marvel at the elegance and complexity of cells and neurons.

The Universe is not a cell or neuron.

Explain precisely what is so horrible about the Earth's design.

He probably can't. He just complains about everything. Why not complain about the very Earth he is standing on?