Archaeology of the New Testament

[Into the Night]

Humans have only been around a few hundred thousand years.

Argument from randU fallacy.

Our discovery of abstract mathematical principles is only a few thousand years old at best.

Mathematics was created by Man.

So your claim is that in the 13.5 billion years before humans existed the orderly mathematical principles of gravity, motion, energy did not exist.

Mathematics did not exist. Man create mathematics. Man created the Theory of Gravitation. Man created the Laws of Motion. Man created all the theories concerning energy, such as the Stefan-Boltzmann law.

 

[Into the Night]

It's not opinion. Both science and logic demonstrate there was a beginning.

Science is completely atheistic. There is no such theory. Logic is completely atheistic. There is no such rule in logic. Neither cares whether there was a 'beginning' or not.

The BGV theorm is a mathematical proof that an expanding universe must have a finite space time boundary in the past.

No such proof.

Basic logic tells you that if the universe was infinitely old, today would never have gotten here.

Logic has no such rule or equation.

Explain precisely why religious belief requires the Earth to be perfect, idyllic, completely free of risk.

That depends entirely on what religion you believe in, doesn't it?

So you just don't like the anthropomorphic gods of ancient human tradition, but you leave open the possibility that there is some kind of rational agency underlying all of physical reality.

The Universe is a random dust cloud. No god or gods are necessary.

Explain precisely why religious belief requires the Earth to be perfect, idyllic, completely free of risk.

You already asked that question.

You aren't providing any explanation for the origin of mathematical laws of physics, the comprehensibility and rationality of the universe, the unlikely convergence of the universal physical constants.

Man created mathematics.
Buzzword fallacies (rationality, convergence, universal physical constant).

Try English.

The purpose of any natural constant in any law of science is to convert the relation to our units of measurement.

 

[Melchizedek=Tecumseh]

Outside of a few years where I tried to convince myself atheism was rational, I've always believed that a lawfully organized universe was probably caused by some type of rational agency or underlying organizing principle.

A God?

 

[Melchizedek=Tecumseh]

An old painting is a 'future harvest'??

Yes! Like if someone made a movie yesterday,about tomorrow!

 

[ZenMode]

It's not opinion. Both science and logic demonstrate there was a beginning. The BGV theorm is a mathematical proof that an expanding universe must have a finite space time boundary in the past.

If that beginning consisted of an explosion, ie Big Bang, it doesn't really make sense that the universe is speeding up, not slowing down.

Basic logic tells you that if the universe was infinitely old, today would never have gotten here.

Ok.

Explain precisely why religious belief requires the Earth to be perfect, idyllic, completely free of risk.

Nobody said completely free of risk. What I said, among other things, is that the Earth's primary light source causes cancer. There are faults that cause earthquakes and tsunamis. The core of the Earth is made of molten metal that periodically shoots out of the core, killing people and animals. The Earth is so flawed that 99% of all species of life have died off. Weather patterns cause tornadoes, hurricanes, mass flooding one minute and drought the next.

Does that sound like the intelligent designer talked about in the Bible?

So you just don't like the anthropomorphic gods of ancient human tradition, but you leave open the possibility that there is some kind of rational agency underlying all of physical reality.

Again, I'm simply saying I don't know.

Explain precisely why religious belief requires the Earth to be perfect, idyllic, completely free of risk.

You aren't providing any explanation for the origin of mathematical laws of physics, the comprehensibility and rationality of the universe, the unlikely convergence of the universal physical constants.

The universe does what it does, for reasons that we don't completely understand. The fact that we are able to explain it doesn't mean the universe is as you describe, it just means we've managed to explain some things.

Just throwing your hands up in defeat and declaring "that's just the way it is!" is not an intellectually satisfying answer.

You aren't providing any explanation for the origin of mathematical laws of physics, the comprehensibility and rationality of the universe, the unlikely convergence of the universal physical constants. These are legitimate philosophical questions.

Just throwing your hands up in defeat and declaring "that's just the way it is!" is not an intellectually satisfying answer.

The atomic matter comprising the ball are highly organized and obey mathematical principles.

Yes, but dropping 100 balls off a roof, even if we can explain, after the fact, why they did what they did, doesn't make the situation any more organized.

Why do we live in a universe where matter, motion, energy, time obey comprehensible mathematical principles.

Again, you have it backwards. The universe does what it does and we've created ways to explain it. That doesn't mean that our explanations were originally plans.

There are many physical scenarios where a universe could just be composed of energy, plasma, hydrogen; or where atomic matter couldn't even exist.

An all powerful being could have designed the universe in a way that we've never even considered.... because it's an all powerful being. Instead, it apparently used an explosion, scattering pieces that crash into planets, at least one time possibly ending most all dinosaur life and rendering the entirety of the rest of the known universe uninhabitable. That's the best it could do?

Doesn't sound very intelligent to me.

 

[ZenMode]

Okay. You are talking about the 'god of the universe' being a unicorn.

Few people believe God is a unicorn. Apparently you do.

You missed the point of my response.

 

[IBDaMann]

Your question presupposes a ...

Nope. My question has no presuppositions other than you won't answer it, because you are an intellectual coward and a card-carrying hypocrite.

I've answered the "who created God?" query on numerous occasions.

Nope. You never have.

How can there be the God you worship? Your explanation is incoherent (your words).

 

[IBDaMann]

Humans have only been around a few hundred thousand years.

No humans have only been around a few hundred thousand years.

Our discovery of abstract mathematical principles ...

Mathematical principals were invented, not discovered. That was the stupidest thing I've read this week.

So your claim is that in the 13.5 billion years before humans existed the orderly mathematical principles of gravity, motion, energy did not exist.

Nope. That is not my claim.

My observation is that you have absolutely no idea what math is, what science is, or what a valid argument is.

 

[IBDaMann]

And when it did, it was lawfully organized, mathematically rational, and finely tuned.

False, false, and false. You're living in a delusion.

The only reason you keep using the word fairytale is because you apparently have some lingering resentment about whatever happened in your Sunday school.

The only reason you can't figure out his use of common words is that your English comprehension is non-existent.

Scientists speculate all the time, even in the absence of data or empirical observation.

... and you are trying to imply that science is speculative. Like I said, you don't know what science or math is.

A random, completely unorganized universe would not be predictable or comprehensible.

Congratulations! You finally got one right. Our universe is stochastic (unpredictable) and incomprehensible due to its sheer magnitude.

The fact that we can make predictions about velocity, momentum, energy proves the universe is organized and obeys mathematical principles.

Nope. It only proves the determinism of known criteria. Predictability requires that we know the criteria, which we don't.

If the universe were truly random and truly unorganized it would be at maximum entropy and thermal equilibrium.

Incorrect. Also, you don't even know the meaning of what you just wrote. Hint: it was stupid.

Which it is not.

Our universe is a random dust cloud, and there are no organized random dustclouds.

As for life, anyone who has taken college a level cellular biology or neuroscience class cannot help but marvel at the elegance and complexity of cells and neurons.

As for Greek scuplture, anyone who has perused the Louvre cannot help but marvel at the elegance and detail of the discipline and work.

Explain precisely what is so horrible about the Earth's design.

It's funny that you use that wording. If the earth had been designed, any 5th-grader could improve on that design in countless ways and could conceive of many wonderful, value-added neighbors to have in close proximity.

 

[Into the Night]

Yes! Like if someone made a movie yesterday,about tomorrow!

?

 

[Into the Night]

If that beginning consisted of an explosion, ie Big Bang, it doesn't really make sense that the universe is speeding up, not slowing down.

The Universe doesn't have a speed, Zen.

Ok.

Nobody said completely free of risk. What I said, among other things, is that the Earth's primary light source causes cancer. There are faults that cause earthquakes and tsunamis. The core of the Earth is made of molten metal that periodically shoots out of the core, killing people and animals.

Sure beats anywhere else in the solar system!

The Earth is so flawed that 99% of all species of life have died off.

Argument from randU fallacy. Math error. Failure to declare boundary.

Weather patterns cause tornadoes, hurricanes, mass flooding one minute and drought the next.

So drought is flooding...gotit!

Does that sound like the intelligent designer talked about in the Bible?

Why not?

A tornado is nothing more than a drain that's upside down. Hot air at the surface and cold air aloft causes them. Same with hurricanes. It's part of that self regulating dissipation of excess energy.

Again, I'm simply saying I don't know.

Yet you have specifically described that you do know. Which is it, dude?

The universe does what it does,

The Universe doesn't 'do' anything. It is not sentient.

Yes, but dropping 100 balls off a roof, even if we can explain, after the fact, why they did what they did, doesn't make the situation any more organized.

They are not any less organized either, all the balls are on the ground. But entropy has increased.

Again, you have it backwards. The universe does what it does and we've created ways to explain it.

What's to explain? The Universe is just a dust cloud.

That doesn't mean that our explanations were originally plans.

A dust cloud has a plan??

An all powerful being could have designed the universe in a way that we've never even considered.... because it's an all powerful being.

The Universe is not organized. There is no design. It is just a random dust cloud.

Instead, it apparently used an explosion, scattering pieces that crash into planets, at least one time possibly ending most all dinosaur life and rendering the entirety of the rest of the known universe uninhabitable. That's the best it could do?

The Theory of the Big Bang. I would say that's the best he can do.

 

[Into the Night]

You missed the point of my response.

You didn't make any point. You simply requested evidence against your belief that God is a unicorn.

 

[ZenMode]

No humans have only been around a few hundred thousand years.

Homo sapiens​

• Lived: from at least 300,000 years ago to present, but likely to be even older
• Where: emerged in Africa but is now found all over the world
• Appearance: rounded and high braincase, small face and upright stance
• Brain size: about 1,330cm3 
• Height: about 1.4–1.8m with females generally shorter than males
• Weight: about 55–90kg with females generally lighter than males
• Diet: omnivorous, eating a wide range of meat, plants and other foods
• Species named in: 1758
• Name meaning: wise man

https://naturalhistory.si.edu/education/teaching-resources/anthropology-and-social-studies/human-evolution

 

[Melchizedek=Tecumseh]

?

Over your head as usual

 

[ZenMode]

The Universe doesn't have a speed, Zen.

The rate that it's expanding does. Derp.

Sure beats anywhere else in the solar system!

Irrelevant.

Argument from randU fallacy. Math error. Failure to declare boundary.

Incoherent babble.

So drought is flooding...gotit!

So you are ESL?

Why not?

A tornado is nothing more than a drain that's upside down. Hot air at the surface and cold air aloft causes them. Same with hurricanes. It's part of that self regulating dissipation of excess energy.

Irrelevant.

Yet you have specifically described that you do know. Which is it, dude?

The Universe doesn't 'do' anything. It is not sentient.

Do lawn mowers cut grass? Are they sentient?

Derp Derp.

They are not any less organized either, all the balls are on the ground. But entropy has increased.

What's to explain? The Universe is just a dust cloud.

Opinion noted.

A dust cloud has a plan??

Derp.

The Universe is not organized. There is no design. It is just a random dust cloud.

Derp.

The Theory of the Big Bang. I would say that's the best he can do.

 

[IBDaMann]

Homo sapiens​

• Lived: from at least 300,000 years ago to present, but likely to be even older
• Where: emerged in Africa but is now found all over the world
• Appearance: rounded and high braincase, small face and upright stance
• Brain size: about 1,330cm3 
• Height: about 1.4–1.8m with females generally shorter than males
• Weight: about 55–90kg with females generally lighter than males
• Diet: omnivorous, eating a wide range of meat, plants and other foods
• Species named in: 1758
• Name meaning: wise man

Too funny. @ZenMode just demonstrated his unquestioning belief that everything on the internet must be true. Wow. That's some stupid shit.

 

[ZenMode]

Too funny. @ZenMode just demonstrated his unquestioning belief that everything on the internet must be true. Wow. That's some stupid shit.

You spelled "National Museum of Natural History" wrong.

 

[Cypress]

If that beginning consisted of an explosion, ie Big Bang, it doesn't really make sense that the universe is speeding up, not slowing down.

Dark energy is making the expansion accelerate.

Ok.

Nobody said completely free of risk. What I said, among other things, is that the Earth's primary light source causes cancer. There are faults that cause earthquakes and tsunamis. The core of the Earth is made of molten metal that periodically shoots out of the core, killing people and animals. The Earth is so flawed that 99% of all species of life have died off. Weather patterns cause tornadoes, hurricanes, mass flooding one minute and drought the next.

Does that sound like the intelligent designer talked about in the Bible?

I don't find the argument that people get skin cancer or weather patterns to be a convincing proof of atheism.

Cancer and weather have almost nothing to do with fine tuning in the way cosmologists and astrophysicists use the concept.

Again, I'm simply saying I don't know.

The universe does what it does, for reasons that we don't completely understand. The fact that we are able to explain it doesn't mean the universe is as you describe, it just means we've managed to explain some things.

Yes, but dropping 100 balls off a roof, even if we can explain, after the fact, why they did what they did, doesn't make the situation any more organized.

Again, you have it backwards. The universe does what it does and we've created ways to explain it. That doesn't mean that our explanations were originally plans.

An all powerful being could have designed the universe in a way that we've never even considered.... because it's an all powerful being. Instead, it apparently used an explosion, scattering pieces that crash into planets, at least one time possibly ending most all dinosaur life and rendering the entirety of the rest of the known universe uninhabitable. That's the best it could do?

Doesn't sound very intelligent to me.

You haven't explained why a universe imbued with mathematical logic and universal mathematical properties just suddenly appeared from completely inanimate, irrational, material causes.

Are you really 100 percent utterly convinced that the material, logical, and rational could somehow just suddenly appear from the immaterial, inanimate, and irrational?

 

[Cypress]

Mathematical principals were invented, not discovered!

So your claim is that before modern humans were around, the logical mathematical relationships of gravity, motion, and energy did not exist in the universe.

 

[Matt Dillon]