APP - Marxism - What is it really?

[Jarod]

Hence you calling it what makes you feel good rather than what it is. Calling a rock a flyswatter might make you feel good, but it doesn't make it a doorknob.

Leftists trying to water down the language so that folks do not understand that "socialism" is what it actually is, that is simply the left "guiding" the conversation so that when they do introduce actual socialism, folks will think it simply means massive welfare hammocks even though they are taking ownership of companies and introducing a form of government that has become totalitarian and has failed as an economic system in every single attempt.

I am not trying to make anyone "feel good" I am simply telling folks what the words actually mean.

So define socialism for me? Modern Denmark style socialism?

 

[IBDaMann]

Taxation and welfare does not "fully control the supply-demand curve"...

... and taxation+welfare alone is not socialism.

Also, if they do that, control the supply-demand curve, without taking control of the companies it is Fascistic Economics not Socialism.

Fascism is socialism, just one particular flavor.

In Fascistic Economic systems the government, through bureaucratic committees, tells the company what kind of widget and how many to make, though it is still privately owned.

If the government confiscates your business, refits it for government purposes, runs it and nonetheless declares that you are still the "owner", you are not the owner. You are engaging in the same word games used by the 3rd Reich during the 4-year plan.

Basically Fascism is socialism without government ownership.

When the government controls private business, there is no longer any private business nor is there any term "private ownership."

Cartels control what the company makes, how much they pay, how many they hire, how many items they make, and where they send it and what they charge.... Fascism, not socialism.

You just described socialism, which includes fascism.

High taxes and big welfare are articles of capitalism.

Nope. Learn what capitalism is. High taxes and big welfare are Marxist ideas, not free-market ideas.

The divide in the US isn't between socialism and capitalism,

The divide is free-markets vs. government controlled markets that determine outcomes, i.e. sound economics vs bogus economics.

it is whether or not the safety net (welfare) should be a hammock.

Nope. There is no "safety net" in the supply-demand curve.

 

[IBDaMann]

So define socialism for me? Modern Venezuela-style socialism?

FTFY.

Socialism = central planning and control of society by a ruling oligarchy that determines all economic and social outcomes.

 

[Damocles]

So define socialism for me? Modern Denmark style socialism?

You are again mistaking welfare and taxation for socialism, what Denmark has is a form of capitalism, and is less welfare friendly now than it used to be.

I have told you what socialism means, I have told you the difference between a Social Democracy (capitalism with high taxation and welfare) and Socialism, you simply act like a lawyer and act as if you are too stupid to understand things. Even though I have even used terms that even lawyers might understand.

I personally think you are trying to play this game because you cannot get past the fact that the words actually do mean things... in reality, all it shows about you is that you refuse to absorb information that you don't want to hear and are purposefully and willfully ignorant on the subject.

 

[Jarod]

You are again mistaking welfare and taxation for socialism. I have told you what it means, I have told you the difference, I have even used terms that lawyers might understand. I think you are trying to play stupid because you think it makes you look smart... but in reality, all it shows is that you refuse to absorb information that you don't want to hear.

I understand…

When they called Obamacare socialism…

When they called Obama a socialist?

You think they were talking about Marxism?

 

[Damocles]

I understand…

When they called Obamacare socialism…

Not socialism. Fascism yes, not socialism.

When they called Obama a socialist?

Again, still not socialism... Though "they" were watering down the language so idiots like you might not fear when real socialism is introduced. What he wanted was socialism, and saying he was a bit socialist isn't all that wrong.

He wanted healthcare to be taken over by government... What we got passed was fascism though, where a bureaucracy was supposed to control what companies did with their resources, then that too got killed when the "must purchase" requirement was struck down and what we wound up with was a form of regulated capitalism. Less affordable regulated capitalism.

You think they were talking about Marxism?

I think they are wrong too, and they allow the left to guide the conversation, not realizing that they are playing a role. I reject the attempt to water down the meaning so that idiots can be convinced that they shouldn't fear the actual system of government that has failed catastrophically in every single attempt.

 

[martin]

"What is it really?" It's a philosophical equivalent of a dead horse which nitwits keep beating.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Socialism is not Marxism.

You are incapable of providing any sort of evidence to support your statements.

Marxism is the DOMINANT form of socialism on the planet. Fascism is another prominent form of socialism - and generally is merged with Marxism in leftist societies. Francisco Franco remarked that "Joseph Stalin is the most perfect Fascist in history."

All Marxists are Socialists
Most Socialists are Marxists

Utopian Socialism that was popular in the 19th century (the 1800's for those on the left) was generally Christian based and laughably naive in construct. Wholly unworkable.

Marx writes;

{Nothing is easier than to give Christian asceticism a Socialist tinge. Has ot Christianity declaimed against private property, against marriage,against the State? Has it not preached in the place of these, charity and poverty, celibacy and mortification of the flesh, monastic life and Mother Church? Christian Socialism is but the holy water with which the priest consecrates the heart-burnings of the aristocrat.}

Marx brought about scientific socialism. The introduction of Dialectical Materialism, later simplified for the masses as Critical Theory. The oppressor vs. the oppressed.

Virtually ALL leftism in America is based on the dialectic. I started this thread because especially the left is utterly ignorant of what they promote. You bristle at the idea that you are a Marxist - yet you are. Sure, you chant mantras from Rachel Maddow, Don Lemon, et al. - not Marx. But what you don't grasp, because of the ignorance of the source material, is that those who give you the talking points are simply paraphrasing Marx.

Oppression of immigrants - must disband ICE - orthodox Dialectic.

Oppression of trans - must accept that men are women - orthodox Dialectic.

Oppression of blacks, Mexicans, Arabs, Asians, et al. - orthodox Dialectic.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Taxation and welfare does not "fully control the supply-demand curve"... Also, if they do that, control the supply-demand curve, without taking control of the companies it is Fascistic Economics not Socialism.

This is not correct.

First off, fascism is a form of socialism.

Socialism is the "control of the means of production by the state or central authority." Ownership is irrelevant, though often preferred by socialists.

In Fascistic Economic systems the government, through bureaucratic committees, tells the company what kind of widget and how many to make, though it is still privately owned.

If one does not run a company, one does not own it. What Mussolini did was offer a form of profit sharing to socialism.

Taxes and welfare do not do that. Basically Fascism is socialism without government ownership.

Correct.

Cartels control what the company makes, how much they pay, how many they hire, how many items they make, and where they send it and what they charge.... Fascism, not socialism.

Fascism is a form of socialism

Taxes and Welfare doesn't do any of that. High taxes and big welfare are articles of capitalism.

While agree that the welfare state is not socialism, it certainly is not capitalism.

We need a seperate thread to discuss what Capitalism is.

The divide in the US isn't between socialism and capitalism, it is whether or not the safety net (welfare) should be a hammock.

I don't agree. 68% of democrats view themselves as socialists and support government control of the means of production.

 

[Jarod]

You are incapable of providing any sort of evidence to support your statements.

Marxism is the DOMINANT form of socialism on the planet. Fascism is another prominent form of socialism - and generally is merged with Marxism in leftist societies. Francisco Franco remarked that "Joseph Stalin is the most perfect Fascist in history."

All Marxists are Socialists
Most Socialists are Marxists

Utopian Socialism that was popular in the 19th century (the 1800's for those on the left) was generally Christian based and laughably naive in construct. Wholly unworkable.

Marx writes;

{Nothing is easier than to give Christian asceticism a Socialist tinge. Has ot Christianity declaimed against private property, against marriage,against the State? Has it not preached in the place of these, charity and poverty, celibacy and mortification of the flesh, monastic life and Mother Church? Christian Socialism is but the holy water with which the priest consecrates the heart-burnings of the aristocrat.}

Marx brought about scientific socialism. The introduction of Dialectical Materialism, later simplified for the masses as Critical Theory. The oppressor vs. the oppressed.

Virtually ALL leftism in America is based on the dialectic. I started this thread because especially the left is utterly ignorant of what they promote. You bristle at the idea that you are a Marxist - yet you are. Sure, you chant mantras from Rachel Maddow, Don Lemon, et al. - not Marx. But what you don't grasp, because of the ignorance of the source material, is that those who give you the talking points are simply paraphrasing Marx.

Oppression of immigrants - must disband ICE - orthodox Dialectic.

Oppression of trans - must accept that men are women - orthodox Dialectic.

Oppression of blacks, Mexicans, Arabs, Asians, et al. - orthodox Dialectic.

None of that has to do with Democratic Socialism. Study up.

 

[Uncensored2008]

None of that has to do with Democratic Socialism. Study up.

I have proven otherwise.

Socialism often has a veneer of democracy. What distinguishes democracy in socialism is who may vote, and what candidates are permitted to run. Joseph Stalin was "elected" 5 times. By overwhelming margins. Sure, only party members were permitted to vote and a vote against Stalin meant expulsion from the party - but isn't that "democratic?"

The reality is that the mantras you recite, that you chant from MSNBC, Young Turks, Raw Story, et al. are orthodox Marxism. That you are ignorant of that reality is irrelevant.

You have yet to read the source material.

 

[Jarod]

I have proven otherwise.

Socialism often has a veneer of democracy. What distinguishes democracy in socialism is who may vote, and what candidates are permitted to run. Joseph Stalin was "elected" 5 times. By overwhelming margins. Sure, only party members were permitted to vote and a vote against Stalin meant expulsion from the party - but isn't that "democratic?"

The reality is that the mantras you recite, that you chant from MSNBC, Young Turks, Raw Story, et al. are orthodox Marxism. That you are ignorant of that reality is irrelevant.

You have yet to read the source material.

You are still not talking about current Democratic Socialism. You are taking a word, socialism, and pretending that the current meaning is the same as 100 years ago. It is not, especially with Democratic Socialism.

What you are talking about it a relic of the past.

 

[Uncensored2008]

You are still not talking about current Democratic Socialism.

Nonsense. You are trying to hide the reality of the past since it exposes the present.

"Nuhn Uhn" is not a valid argument.

You are taking a word, socialism, and pretending that the current meaning is the same as 100 years ago. It is not, especially with Democratic Socialism.

Nonsense.

I have demonstrated that the left of today continues to operate based on orthodox Marxism, basing virtually all goals on Critical Theory. The party has added a racist spin to critical theory as class division simply doesn't exist in America. Hence oppressors are the white people, and oppressed are all others.

Yet it remains the dialectic of oppressor vs. oppressed straight out of the Manifesto. Turn on ANY leftist propaganda - CNN, MSNOW; or pick up the party print propaganda of the NY Times or WaPo - and Critical Theory screams loudly.

You are the warriors of the dialectic. That you are ignorant of what you serve and promote is irrelevant.

What you are talking about it a relic of the past.

Yet it is what you and the other Marxists here promote every single day.

Again, it makes no difference that you don't grasp what you serve. You are what Marx called "a useful idiot."