Has the United States lost the Iran war?

Jarod

Truth Teller
Contributor
It looks like Iran will permanently have dominion over the Strait of Hormuz, and we will pay them (if we don't just walk away),

They are already rapidly rebuilding, and now have every incentive to get Nuclear Weapons. 8 years after Obama's nuclear deal, they had not yet enriched uranium even close to a level needed for a bomb, they started after the deal was ended 6 years ago now they certainly will expedite that goal. Maybe we set them back 2 years, but the second this war is over the clock will start ticking.

Thoughts?
 
It looks like Iran will permanently have dominion over the Strait of Hormuz, and we will pay them (if we don't just walk away),

They are already rapidly rebuilding, and now have every incentive to get Nuclear Weapons. 8 years after Obama's nuclear deal, they had not yet enriched uranium even close to a level needed for a bomb, they started after the deal was ended 6 years ago now they certainly will expedite that goal. Maybe we set them back 2 years, but the second this war is over the clock will start ticking.

Thoughts?
The grand mullah Trump killed seemed to genuinely not be interested in building nuclear weapons, but his son is more radical and has been given every incentive by Trump and Bibi to build nukes

Now that Trump ripped up the 2015 agreement, they have no treaty obligations to hold back or even to allow inspectors back in.
 
The grand mullah Trump killed seemed to genuinely not be interested in building nuclear weapons, but his son is more radical and has been given every incentive by Trump and Bibi to build nukes

Now that Trump ripped up the 2015 agreement, they have no treaty obligations to hold back or even to allow inspectors back in.
They wont discuss this in APP, you cant respond with a meme.
 
No, the US has not 'lost' the war with Iran. What has happened is Iran's power structure has changed. With the ayatollah's dead or in hiding, the real political power has shifted away from them as they lost control of the country. The Iranian parliament, the public face of the government, was largely a puppet of the ayatollahs and has little real political power. This left the military to rise to power in that vacuum.

So, today, the real political power is shifting to military and revolutionary guard officers at the top of each service. They are increasingly acting like warlords and racing to create and secure their fiefdoms within the country. The military leadership is more open to negotiation and simply wants to hold on to their power. It is the revolutionary guard that's the problem.

With the revolutionary guard, you have zealots running things. These are fanatics. They have little qualm about fighting to the death and believe their own propaganda. They'd love to have a nuclear weapon but they'd have to fight the regular military to get it. That's a fight they can't afford to have while the US is in play.
Worse, they aren't negotiating. The parliament and military might but they have essentially zero power over the IRGC. So, the US negotiates with the parliament and military to get a ceasefire. The IRGC goes out the next day and attacks a merchant ship or three, launches some drones or a ballistic missile or two, and even if 98% are shot down or the merchant ship attack is stopped, the ceasefire appears broken and the parliament and military get blamed even though it isn't their fault.

Trump's mistake was taking out the ayatollahs. Better to deal with the dictator you know than kill him and have to deal with a new dictator you don't know.

Carter created this mess letting the ayatollahs take power. Then administration after administration, Democrat and Republican alike, let it fester while occasionally waging an ineffective war on Iran for just long enough each time for the Iranians to get good at surviving those wars close to intact. Now the boil has popped and all the nastiness and puss is oozing out.

Trump didn't create the problem, he just brought it to a head. He could have kicked the can down the road instead like past, particularly Democrat(ic) administrations have, but he chose not to. His only really big mistake here was he failed to see the geopolitical reality of how Iran is administered politically and now we have a situation where it is turning into a variant of Lebanon or Gaza.

Anyway, that in a nutshell is what's going on in Iran today.

So,

They wont discuss this in APP, you cant respond with a meme.
You are wrong. I can and will discuss this rationally and without memes.
 
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No, the US has not 'lost' the war with Iran. What has happened is Iran's power structure has changed. With the ayatollah's dead or in hiding, the real political power has shifted away from them as they lost control of the country. The Iranian parliament, the public face of the government, was largely a puppet of the ayatollahs and has little real political power. This left the military to rise to power in that vacuum.

So, today, the real political power is shifting to military and revolutionary guard officers at the top of each service. They are increasingly acting like warlords and racing to create and secure their fiefdoms within the country. The military leadership is more open to negotiation and simply wants to hold on to their power. It is the revolutionary guard that's the problem.

With the revolutionary guard, you have zealots running things. These are fanatics. They have little qualm about fighting to the death and believe their own propaganda. They'd love to have a nuclear weapon but they'd have to fight the regular military to get it. That's a fight they can't afford to have while the US is in play.
Worse, they aren't negotiating. The parliament and military might but they have essentially zero power over the IRGC. So, the US negotiates with the parliament and military to get a ceasefire. The IRGC goes out the next day and attacks a merchant ship or three, launches some drones or a ballistic missile or two, and even if 98% are shot down or the merchant ship attack is stopped, the ceasefire appears broken and the parliament and military get blamed even though it isn't their fault.

Trump's mistake was taking out the ayatollahs. Better to deal with the dictator you know than kill him and have to deal with a new dictator you don't know.

Carter created this mess letting the ayatollahs take power. Then administration after administration, Democrat and Republican alike, let it fester while occasionally waging an ineffective war on Iran for just long enough each time for the Iranians to get good at surviving those wars close to intact. Now the boil has popped and all the nastiness and puss is oozing out.

Trump didn't create the problem, he just brought it to a head. He could have kicked the can down the road instead like past, particularly Democrat(ic) administrations have, but he chose not to. His only really big mistake here was he failed to see the geopolitical reality of how Iran is administered politically and now we have a situation where it is turning into a variant of Lebanon or Gaza.

Anyway, that in a nutshell is what's going on in Iran today.

So,


You are wrong. I can and will discuss this rationally and without memes.
DO you have a citation for this claim?
 
DO you have a citation for this claim?
Yes. These I looked up after the fact, writing what I did prior to those look ups. They agree with what I stated:





 
Yes. These I looked up after the fact, writing what I did prior to those look ups. They agree with what I stated:





None of them support your claim.
 
No, the US has not 'lost' the war with Iran. What has happened is Iran's power structure has changed. With the ayatollah's dead or in hiding, the real political power has shifted away from them as they lost control of the country. The Iranian parliament, the public face of the government, was largely a puppet of the ayatollahs and has little real political power. This left the military to rise to power in that vacuum.

So, today, the real political power is shifting to military and revolutionary guard officers at the top of each service. They are increasingly acting like warlords and racing to create and secure their fiefdoms within the country. The military leadership is more open to negotiation and simply wants to hold on to their power. It is the revolutionary guard that's the problem.

With the revolutionary guard, you have zealots running things. These are fanatics. They have little qualm about fighting to the death and believe their own propaganda. They'd love to have a nuclear weapon but they'd have to fight the regular military to get it. That's a fight they can't afford to have while the US is in play.
Worse, they aren't negotiating. The parliament and military might but they have essentially zero power over the IRGC. So, the US negotiates with the parliament and military to get a ceasefire. The IRGC goes out the next day and attacks a merchant ship or three, launches some drones or a ballistic missile or two, and even if 98% are shot down or the merchant ship attack is stopped, the ceasefire appears broken and the parliament and military get blamed even though it isn't their fault.

Trump's mistake was taking out the ayatollahs. Better to deal with the dictator you know than kill him and have to deal with a new dictator you don't know.

Carter created this mess letting the ayatollahs take power. Then administration after administration, Democrat and Republican alike, let it fester while occasionally waging an ineffective war on Iran for just long enough each time for the Iranians to get good at surviving those wars close to intact. Now the boil has popped and all the nastiness and puss is oozing out.

Trump didn't create the problem, he just brought it to a head. He could have kicked the can down the road instead like past, particularly Democrat(ic) administrations have, but he chose not to. His only really big mistake here was he failed to see the geopolitical reality of how Iran is administered politically and now we have a situation where it is turning into a variant of Lebanon or Gaza.

Anyway, that in a nutshell is what's going on in Iran today.

So,


You are wrong. I can and will discuss this rationally and without memes.
I respectfully disagree. By not clearly and decisively winning this war, America has LOST it.

Best analogy I can give is something like a Heavyweight boxing champion in a boxing match against a young girl scout...and fights to a draw. Any objective person would consider that to be a loss for the champ...simply because he was unable to best the young girl.

Back in the late 1970's Iran did us very dirty; I have not been a fan of theirs since. But the "strategy" behind this war has been abysmal...and thinking of it as anything but a loss for us is, in my opinion, merely fanciful thinking.
 
I respectfully disagree. By not clearly and decisively winning this war, America has LOST it.

Most wars in history are not "quick wins." That is, they aren't over in a single battle or a few weeks.
Best analogy I can give is something like a Heavyweight boxing champion in a boxing match against a young girl scout...and fights to a draw. Any objective person would consider that to be a loss for the champ...simply because he was unable to best the young girl.

The difference with war is that there's always one more round to fight. Okay, with your analogy, would you, as a spectator, cheer for the boxing champ as he pummeled the girl into a broken pile of hamburger and then started pumping his arms in victory?


Back in the late 1970's Iran did us very dirty; I have not been a fan of theirs since. But the "strategy" behind this war has been abysmal...and thinking of it as anything but a loss for us is, in my opinion, merely fanciful thinking.
The US has never been particularly good at the subtilty of politics in other cultures. Hell, American tourists aren't very good with other cultures.
 
Most wars in history are not "quick wins." That is, they aren't over in a single battle or a few weeks.

But this was promised to be a very quick win. That promise, not kept, in my opinion, means we have a defacto loss in this war. We are much more powerful than Iran militarily...and not obtaining a promised quick win in that encounter puts us in the LOSS column.

The difference with war is that there's always one more round to fight. Okay, with your analogy, would you, as a spectator, cheer for the boxing champ as he pummeled the girl into a broken pile of hamburger and then started pumping his arms in victory?

Nope. But so what? If however, the boxing champ were not able to show a clear ability to win the fight, I would consider it a loss for him. So would almost everyone else that I know.

The US has never been particularly good at the subtilty of politics in other cultures. Hell, American tourists aren't very good with other cultures.
We agree here, TA. But once again, so what?

My comment, which you quoted and to which you were replying here, "Back in the late 1970's Iran did us very dirty; I have not been a fan of theirs since. But the "strategy" behind this war has been abysmal...and thinking of it as anything but a loss for us is, in my opinion, merely fanciful thinking."...stands as written.
 
It looks like Iran will permanently have dominion over the Strait of Hormuz, and we will pay them (if we don't just walk away),

They are already rapidly rebuilding, and now have every incentive to get Nuclear Weapons. 8 years after Obama's nuclear deal, they had not yet enriched uranium even close to a level needed for a bomb, they started after the deal was ended 6 years ago now they certainly will expedite that goal. Maybe we set them back 2 years, but the second this war is over the clock will start ticking.

Thoughts?

Why are you posting flame bait in APP?
 
It looks like Iran will permanently have dominion over the Strait of Hormuz, and we will pay them (if we don't just walk away),

They are already rapidly rebuilding, and now have every incentive to get Nuclear Weapons. 8 years after Obama's nuclear deal, they had not yet enriched uranium even close to a level needed for a bomb, they started after the deal was ended 6 years ago now they certainly will expedite that goal. Maybe we set them back 2 years, but the second this war is over the clock will start ticking.

Thoughts?

Has the United States lost the Iran war?​

Yes. It was a loser from the beginning as both Tulsi and Gen. Caine tried to explain to Trump. It's why no President since 1979 was dumb enough to pull the trigger on such a war.

Our military war games all sorts of scenarios and the Iran War has been extensively researched. Trump ignored all of that since he always believes he's the smartest man in the room so here we are; on the losing end of a war.
 
But this was promised to be a very quick win. That promise, not kept, in my opinion, means we have a defacto loss in this war. We are much more powerful than Iran militarily...and not obtaining a promised quick win in that encounter puts us in the LOSS column.

Every president in history has made promises they couldn't keep. For a true "quick win" we would have needed a ground invasion on the scale of Iraq. What it shows is that the President AND his advisors, including in the military, simply haven't got a clue how Iran operated politically. And, yes, that is totally possible.
Nope. But so what? If however, the boxing champ were not able to show a clear ability to win the fight, I would consider it a loss for him. So would almost everyone else that I know.

I see that differently. The boxing champ was just being manganous to the girl. Rather than pummel her into a vegetable, he let her have her 'fun' windmilling at him while he pulled his punches in return. That isn't a loss, that's doing the right thing.
We agree here, TA. But once again, so what?

My comment, which you quoted and to which you were replying here, "Back in the late 1970's Iran did us very dirty; I have not been a fan of theirs since. But the "strategy" behind this war has been abysmal...and thinking of it as anything but a loss for us is, in my opinion, merely fanciful thinking."...stands as written.
This is a big issue. The US is a very powerful nation and ends up in world politics constantly. It's about time we started teaching our kids while they're in school how to deal with such things. Of course, that means we would have to abolish most of our current system of education with one that actually produced good results and that's unlikely to happen.
 
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