Oklahoma Bible mandate challenged in Court

[Melchizedek=Tecumseh]

The pilgrims were 150 years before the American revolution. By the time of the Revolution, established Anglican/ Episcopalian state churches were the norm in the colonies.

That's why the Baptists and other religious dissenters insisted on separation of church and state; to get out from under the thumb of the State sanctioned Anglican churches.

Teaching religious studies objectively has always been legal in public schools.

You know who wanted to remove any and all objective study of religions from the classroom? It was the Soviet Communists.

Exactly! 150 years after the Pilgrims, Organized Religion had brought to America the same stuff,the Pilgrims left Europe over.
You're not going to learn much about God from organized religion! Quite the opposite! I don't know why you of all people are so hip on dragging religion into public schools!
Probably because you have no relationship or true Faith!
Religion is no different to you then reading,writing,arithmetic!

 

[Taichiliberal]

You are not going to require Jack shit.

The University of California does not need your permission to provide a comprehensive suite of religious studies coursework on Judaism, Buddhism, Christianity, Jainism Islam, Hinduism.

No University of California student needs your permission to enroll in an Introduction to Hinduism class.

Public high schools and colleges are free to teach world religions objectively, as long as they don't promote the practice of any one particular religion. No university or highschool in California needs an authoritarian like you to approve it.

The man has a point!

 

[Jerry Mathers]

It depends on the religion. Catholics certainly thrived on that. Evangelicals are just the opposite.

Painting with a broad brush is a sign of bigotry and ignorance.

winterborn hasn't had a new idea since 62.

 

[zymurgy]

The pilgrims were 150 years before the American revolution. By the time of the Revolution, established Anglican/ Episcopalian state churches were the norm in the colonies.

That's why the Baptists and other religious dissenters insisted on separation of church and state; to get out from under the thumb of the State sanctioned Anglican churches.

Teaching religious studies objectively has always been legal in public schools.

You know who wanted to remove any and all objective study of religions from the classroom? It was the Soviet Communists.

That’s historical sleight of hand. Religious dissenters certainly argued against established churches in the founding era, but the modern constitutional doctrine you’re invoking did not bind the states then. The First Amendment originally restrained Congress. The Establishment Clause was applied to state and local governments through Fourteenth Amendment incorporation in the 20th century. You’re taking a later constitutional doctrine and projecting it backward onto colonial America.

 

[Into the Night]

The Oklahoma Bible mandate has supposedly been rescinded:

By the incoming superintendent.

The corollary topic introduced in this thread is whether or not any religion should be taught in state-supported schools.

Doesn't matter. It is perfectly legal to teach religion in schools.

 

[Into the Night]

Agree that there is a gap between teaching *about* something and teaching it in a promotional manner. The Fundies/ Evangelists who are pushing nonsense like this business in Oklahoma want the latter, of course. Even to the point of spending public money on Bibles to distribute to the students. Thankfully that is dead now.

So you prefer your religious text taught in schools instead, eh?

 

[Cypress]

That’s historical sleight of hand. Religious dissenters certainly argued against established churches in the founding era, but the modern constitutional doctrine you’re invoking did not bind the states then. The First Amendment originally restrained Congress. The Establishment Clause was applied to state and local governments through Fourteenth Amendment incorporation in the 20th century. You’re taking a later constitutional doctrine and projecting it backward onto colonial America.

The Virginia Bill of Religious Freedom establishing separation of church and state was signed into law in the 1780s, long before the 20th century.

The Virginia Baptists had acquired enough clout to get the state to adopt religious freedom laws, essentially emancipating them from any state churches, and establishing a separation of church and state

That is where the idea of separation of church and state first originated and was implemented

 

[Into the Night]

That’s historical sleight of hand. Religious dissenters certainly argued against established churches in the founding era, but the modern constitutional doctrine you’re invoking did not bind the states then.

It still doesn't.

The First Amendment originally restrained Congress.

It still does.

The Establishment Clause was applied to state and local governments through Fourteenth Amendment incorporation in the 20th century.

The 14th amendment did not change the 1st amendment in any way. There is no 'Establishment Clause' that nullifies the 1st amendment.

You’re taking a later constitutional doctrine and projecting it backward onto colonial America.

No such doctrine.
The Constitution of the United States is the ONLY authoritative reference of the Constitution of the United States.

 

[WinterBorn]

It depends on the religion. Catholics certainly thrived on that. Evangelicals are just the opposite.

Painting with a broad brush is a sign of bigotry and ignorance.

I disagree. The effort is not for the people to understand. It is for obedience to The Book.

 

[WinterBorn]

"Invaded"

ROFL

No one would ever describe you as sane, Jim Jones wannabe.

Was the Pilgrim arrival in the New World not an invasion? Not a huge one, granted.

 

[Into the Night]

The Virginia Bill of Religious Freedom establishing separation of church and state was signed into law in the 1780s, long before the 20th century.

The Virginia Baptists had acquired enough clout to get the state to adopt religious freedom laws, essentially emancipating them from any state churches, and establishing a separation of church and state

That is where the idea of separation of church and state first originated and was implemented

There is no 'separation of church and state'.
See Article I, $16 of the Constitution of the State of Virginia.

 

[zymurgy]

The Virginia Bill of Religious Freedom establishing separation of church and state was signed into law in the 1780s, long before the 20th century.

The Virginia Baptists had acquired enough clout to get the state to adopt religious freedom laws, essentially emancipating them from any state churches, and establishing a separation of church and state

And that actually proves the point.

Virginia chose, by state law, to disestablish religion in the 1780s. Other states chose differently. Massachusetts continued tax-supported established churches until 1833, and multiple state constitutions imposed religious qualifications for holding office.

So there obviously was not some nationwide constitutional rule of “separation of church and state” binding every state in the 1780s. Virginia was adopting Virginia policy.

That is where the idea of separation of church and state first originated and was implemented

Actually....Roger Williams was arguing for separation between civil government and religion in Rhode Island more than a century earlier.

 

[Into the Night]

I disagree. The effort is not for the people to understand. It is for obedience to The Book.

A book is not sentient, Winkie.

 

[Into the Night]

Was the Pilgrim arrival in the New World not an invasion? Not a huge one, granted.

No. There was no national border invaded.

 

[WinterBorn]

You are not going to require Jack shit.

The University of California does not need your permission to provide a comprehensive suite of religious studies coursework on Judaism, Buddhism, Christianity, Jainism Islam, Hinduism.

No University of California student needs your permission to enroll in an Introduction to Hinduism class.

Public high schools and colleges are free to teach world religions objectively, as long as they don't promote the practice of any one particular religion. No university or highschool in California needs an authoritarian like you to approve it.

I don't think any of the classes you mentioned are required. So they would not be "shoving it down your throat".

 

[WinterBorn]

No. There was no national border invaded.

Borders are not the measure of an invasion.

They landed, took possession of lands (whether there were people there or not), and then steadily expanded.

 

[WinterBorn]

Exactly! 150 years after the Pilgrims, Organized Religion had brought to America the same stuff,the Pilgrims left Europe over.
You're not going to learn much about God from organized religion! Quite the opposite! I don't know why you of all people are so hip on dragging religion into public schools!
Probably because you have no relationship or true Faith!
Religion is no different to you then reading,writing,arithmetic!

I think you are mistaken about all organized religions. I grew up in an excellent Methodist church. It followed the examples of love and charity.

 

[WinterBorn]

A book is not sentient, Winkie.

I never said the book was sentient. I said "obedience to The Book". The Bible contains many, many rules and laws for people to follow. Being obedient to the rules does not mean the rule book is alive.

 

[Cypress]

And that actually proves the point.

Looks like you had no idea about the history of the Virginia Baptists and their vital role in originating the principle of separation of church and state. This is obviously the first you've ever heard of it.
I try to to write a "gotcha!" post to other people unless I know what I'm talking about .

So there obviously was not some nationwide constitutional rule of “separation of church and state”!

You're not responding to what I wrote, you're responding to what you wish I wrote.

I didn't say anything about a nationwide law.
I stated that the Baptists were the ones who originated the idea of separation of church and state. That's exactly what they did in Virginia and it established a principle that eventually expanded and became universal.

​

Separation of Church and State was an idea the Baptists wanted and won support for.

 

[Cypress]

I don't think any of the classes you mentioned are required. So they would not be "shoving it down your throat".

Correct, that's good to mention. Religious studies classes are electives, just like art history, and music appreciation.

There is no "forcing down the throat ".