Oklahoma Bible mandate challenged in Court

[murph63]

It does not follow that being able to restrain yourself from murdering means that greed, cheating, arrogance, envy, wrath, sloth, and deceit will be eliminated.

Are you really so stupid you can't imagine a non-mystical reason to NOT be greedy, cheat, and deceive?

Honestly?


Are you sure you aren't in a prison somewhere? Someone who can't understand why these things are bad without reference to the supernatural is really a scary unhinged person who should NOT be allowed access to society.

 

[murph63]

You worship, support, and spend countless hours defending a guy who cheated on all his wives,

And the only reason cheating on a spouse is bad is because there's math in the universe.

defrauded his own charity foundation,

And we know this is wrong because there are "verbs" (you can't see or touch or taste or smell a verb, ergo there must be inivisble beings beyond space and time that have decreed that stealing from charities is a bad thing. Selah!)

and was found by both criminal and civil juries to be liable for sexual assault, business fraud, and defamation.

And the only reason we know this is bad is because many great universities were founded specifically as Christian organizations thus giving us CLEAR PROOF that the supernatural exists and is in control.

SELAH!

 

[Jerry Mathers]

It does not follow that being able to restrain yourself from murdering means that greed, cheating, arrogance, envy, wrath, sloth, and deceit will be eliminated.

dumbest shit ever.

you're a fucking moron.

 

[Cypress]

I"ve asked you before to stop the dishonest phrasing. I see you persist. Dishonesty seems to be the only consistent aspect to your "morality".

So much for your vaunted "beliefs"

You have no absolute standard to say human life objectively has an innate and inherent value. We are just physical collections of quarks and electrons, and if that is true our social conventions are simply utilitarian and based on self-interest

So do I think oatmeal cookies are "good" because GOD?

I hope you are not comparing oatmeal cookies to the abstract and immaterial values of beneficence, justice, temperance, prudence, fidelity, veracity.

 

[murph63]

You have no absolute standard to say human life objectively has an innate and inherent value.

That's. Because. It. Does. NOT. It ONLY has value to the person and it's value to society is that of a member of the network, each of whose safety is important because if we arbitrarily decide that only SOME people are worthy of decency then we wind up with POGROMS and GENOCIDES.

And 1 Samuel 15:3

We are just physical collections of quarks and electrons, and if true our social conventions are simply utilitarian and based on self-interest

Sure. Why does that BOTHER you so much? Imagine a world like that. And then remember you are a social creature whose SURVIVAL IS A FUNCTION OF GETTING ALONG WITH YOUR FELLOW SOCIAL CREATURES.

I hope you are not comparing oatmeal cookies to the abstract and immaterial values of beneficence, justice, temperance, prudence, fidelity, veracity.

I was talking about the word "good". It is abstract in all applications. Ergo if I think oatmeal cookies are good, by your pathological thinking, it must mean that there is a God.

 

[Jerry Mathers]

And the only reason cheating on a spouse is bad is because there's math in the universe.



And we know this is wrong because there are "verbs" (you can't see or touch or taste or smell a verb, ergo there must be inivisble beings beyond space and time that have decreed that stealing from charities is a bad thing. Selah!)




And the only reason we know this is bad is because many great universities were founded specifically as Christian organizations thus giving us CLEAR PROOF that the supernatural exists and is in control.

SELAH!

yes. he wants to keep the structures and by degree (33?)....... change the teachings to Lucifer worship.

 

[Jerry Mathers]

You have no absolute standard to say human life objectively has an innate and inherent value. We are just physical collections of quarks and electrons, and if that is true our social conventions are simply utilitarian and based on self-interest

I hope you are not comparing oatmeal cookies to the abstract and immaterial values of beneficence, justice, temperance, prudence, fidelity, veracity.

god says.. Jesus says.

you are a nazi.

 

[Jerry Mathers]

sorry legions if I interrupted your jackoff session.

 

[Jerry Mathers]

You have no absolute standard to say human life objectively has an innate and inherent value. We are just physical collections of quarks and electrons, and if that is true our social conventions are simply utilitarian and based on self-interest

I hope you are not comparing oatmeal cookies to the abstract and immaterial values of beneficence, justice, temperance, prudence, fidelity, veracity.

to reiterate.

such a fucking nazi.

you just get all juiced up on the internet and the demons take over and speak directly through your fallen state.

 

[Into the Night]

But at least with my version of morality (forgive me for using YOUR word) --the ability to know murder is "wrong"-- is based on something REAL.

Void argument fallacy. Buzzword fallacy. You haven't specified anything.

If I were to meet you I would be worried about being around you. The ONLY reason you know murder is "wrong" is because of some invisible force that apparently TOLD you it was wrong.

That makes you kinda scary. What if your invisible magic being does a 1Sam15:3? You gonna go with it?

What invisible magic being?
Did you know war is sometimes necessary?

If not, why not?

At least with me you know why I won't murder someone. And my position isn't variable based on invisible magic beings who somehow communicate to you telepathically(?)

What invisible magic being?

Yeah it does. As per usual you SPECIALIZE in special pleading.

Fallacy fallacy. No special pleading took place.

 

[Into the Night]

to reiterate.

such a fucking nazi.

you just get all juiced up on the internet and the demons take over and speak directly through your fallen state.

Nazi fallacy.
What demons?
You think the internet is demons? That means you are also.

 

[Cypress]

That's. Because. It. Does. NOT. It ONLY has value to the person and it's value to society!

Exactly. Your worldview inevitably leads to the conclusion that there is no objective morality, no absolute right and wrong. There is only opinion and social convention.
If killing, conquest, and pillaging serve the interest of a society or nation, it is not inherently wrong for them to believe in that

Why does that BOTHER you so much?

Doesn't bother me in the least for you to admit your worldview does not lead to a belief in absolute right and wrong, that there is no standard for right action beyond opinion and convention.

Imagine a world like that. And then remember you are a social creature whose SURVIVAL IS A FUNCTION OF GETTING ALONG WITH YOUR FELLOW SOCIAL CREATURES

There is no Darwinian evolutionary benefit to sacrificing your tribe's resources to help competitors, rivals, strangers, enemies, the infirm, or the diseased.

I was talking about the word "good"!

Oatmeal cookie is not an abstract immaterial value like beneficence, justice, or temperance, and the taste of oatmeal cookies is an entirely subjective experience.
Rape and murder are not open to subjective opinion in my worldview.
.

 

[murph63]

Exactly. Your worldview inevitably leads to the conclusion that there is no objective morality,

How many times did I have to say it before you finally got it?

And why on earth does it matter if morality is objective or subjective. At least I have a reason for believing murder is wrong.

no absolute right and wrong. There is only opinion and social convention.

You, yourself, said it would not be murder for a bear to kill another bear (or some other animal analogue). That's because it isn't.

It isn't morally wrong for a well-fed housecat to kill a songbird. Precisely because of this.

If killing, conquest, and pillaging serve the interest of a society or nation, it is not inherently wrong for them to believe in that

Have you actually read the Bible? Because the OT is pretty much EXACTLY THAT.

Human history is EXACTLY THAT.

There is no Darwinian evolutionary benefit to sacrificing your tribe's resources to help competitors, rivals, strangers, enemies, the infirm, or the diseased.

Science seems to disagree with you (again)

The evolution of extraordinary self-sacrifice - Scientific Reports

From a theoretical perspective, individuals are expected to sacrifice their welfare only when the benefits outweigh the costs. In nature, however, the costs of altruism and spite can be extreme, as in cases of irreversible sterility and self-destructive weaponry. Here we show that...

www.nature.com

Oatmeal cookie is not an abstract immaterial value like beneficence, justice, or temperance

READ WHAT I WROTE: I wasn't talking about "cookie"... I was talking about "GOOD" as an abstract.

God you are so dense it is scary!

, and the taste of oatmeal cookies is an entirely subjective experience.
Rape and murder are not open to subjective opinion in my worldview.
.

" Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

 

[Jerry Mathers]

Exactly. Your worldview inevitably leads to the conclusion that there is no objective morality, no absolute right and wrong. There is only opinion and social convention.
If killing, conquest, and pillaging serve the interest of a society or nation, it is not inherently wrong for them to believe in that


Doesn't bother me in the least for you to admit your worldview does not lead to a belief in absolute right and wrong, that there is no standard for right action beyond opinion and convention.

There is no Darwinian evolutionary benefit to sacrificing your tribe's resources to help competitors, rivals, strangers, enemies, the infirm, or the diseased.

Oatmeal cookie is not an abstract immaterial value like beneficence, justice, or temperance, and the taste of oatmeal cookies is an entirely subjective experience.
Rape and murder are not open to subjective opinion in my worldview.
.

yes. you're both Nazis, legion.

 

[Cypress]

And why on earth does it matter if morality is objective or subjective.

If morality is subjective and relative, you have no standard to say Nazis killing Jews is absolutely and objectively wrong. It's just a matter of opinion. The Nazis certainly believed it was in society's best interest to liquidate Jews, along with the disabled and the mentally impaired.

At least I have a reason for believing murder is wrong.

You just have an opinion why murder is wrong. The Nazis had their opinion on why murder is right.

You, yourself, said it would not be murder for a bear to kill another bear (or some other animal analogue). That's because it isn't!

And you said humans are just another animal. No different than animals. So if you think bears cannot commit murder, why did you set up an entirely different "moral" standard for humans, who you claim are capable of the ethically outrageous act of "murder"?

READ WHAT I WROTE: I wasn't talking about "cookie"... I was talking about "GOOD" as an abstract.

The taste of an oatmeal cookie, oysters, and liver are entirely subjective.

In my worldview gassing Jews is objectivily and absolutely wrong. It's not subjective.

 

[Cypress]

Science seems to disagree with you (again)!

The evolution of extraordinary self-sacrifice - Scientific Reports

From a theoretical perspective, individuals are expected to sacrifice their welfare only when the benefits outweigh the costs. In nature, however, the costs of altruism and spite can be extreme, as in cases of irreversible sterility and self-destructive weaponry. Here we show that...

www.nature.com

You obviously frantically Googled an article you can't explain in your own words, hoping I wouldn't look at it

Your own article supports what I said: that while animal populations may sacrifice for kin, they will not sacrifice for non-kin, and will in fact develop spite for populations that are not related to them through kinship.

There is no Darwinian evolutionary benefit to sacrificing your tribe's resources to help competitors, rivals, strangers, enemies, the infirm, or the diseased.

You have pulled this BS before where you scrambled to find an article that didn't actually say what you hoped it said.
I'm never trusting any articles you post, ever again.

 

[murph63]

If morality is subjective and relative, you have no standard to say Nazis killing Jews is absolutely and objectively wrong. It's just a matter of opinion.

The opinion of the human race. I'm sure if you asked the whales they wouldn't much care one way or the other who killed whom. Just as we don't much care for the strife and war in other high intelligence animals.

You just have an opinion why murder is wrong. The Nazis had their opinion on why murder is right.

So you have opted to simply IGNORE WHAT I HAVE SAID OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. No wonder you sucked at school so bad you couldn't finish a grad degree.

And you said humans are just another animal. No different than animals.

YES! Again yes! These "moral issues" of which you speak are ONLY important to humans.

Do you HONESTLY think that cats care about our murder rate?

In my worldview gassing Jews is objectivily and absolutely wrong. It's not subjective.

At least I know WHY it is immoral. All you have is because God told you so.

I'd ask you about Euthyphro but I see you already resolved the dilemma.

 

[murph63]

You obviously frantically Googled an article you can't explain in your own words, hoping I wouldn't look at it

Your own article supports what I said: that while animal populations may sacrifice for kin, they will not sacrifice for non-kin, and will in fact develop spite for populations that are not related to them through kinship.


You have pulled this BS before where you scrambled to find an article that didn't actually say what you hoped it said.
I'm never trusting any articles you post, ever again.

I will admit to that point. I had misread your post and thought you had made a universal decree against all sacrifice.




















See, Cypress, this is what it looks like to debate honestly. Accept when one is in error. I know you can't ever do that. )

 

[Cypress]

The opinion of the human race!

Nope. If you were correct, murder, rape, lying, cheating, greed, hubris, selfishness wouldn't be so widespread.

IGNORE WHAT I HAVE SAID OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN!

I'm perfectly satisfied with the way this discussion concluded:

with you admitting...

your world view is moral relativism,​

morality in your worldview is based on opinion or cultural convention,​

and the reason you don't say a bear can commit murder but a human can is just due to arbitrary relativistic convention.​

 

[murph63]

Nope. If you were correct, murder, rape, lying, cheating, greed, hubris, selfishness wouldn't be so widespread.

I'm perfectly satisfied with the way this discussion concluded:

with you admitting...

your world view is moral relativism,​

morality in your worldview is based on opinion or cultural convention,​

and the reason you don't say a bear can commit murder but a human can is just due to arbitrary relativistic convention.​

Thanks for you tacit admission that murder is wrong ONLY because an invisible sky being beamed it into your mind before you were born.

(I'm so glad of my superior morality. You can count on me to know right from wrong because I have a basis. You are untrustworthy because you think invisible beings beam the rules into your head. That's pretty fucked up.)