APP - Dietrich Bonhoeffer: Why the preservation of good ethics and national character are so important to that nation’s politics.

[ModernDiogenes]

I go on so about ethics and national character and why it’s important in regard to discussing MAGA and Trump. I never give the sources credit. Obviously it’s a philosophical based argument but I never cite the important philosophers. That’s a mistake. Here’s a potent one: Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Commonly enough known in the early post WW2 period few have heard of him today and that is sad. I’ve been aware of him since high school as he was assigned reading.

He was a Lutheran Pastor, theologian, author and I’d claim philosopher who died at the hands of The NAZI government in 1945 by hanging. Having been left in prison for two years prior his execution. His crime, helping Jews flee Germany.

He wrote of what lead to otherwise good people to abandon their faith and their ethical knowledge of good vs. evil that allowed them to support, either by their direct involvement or in their silence, evil on the level of the Third Reich. He called it a kind of “stupidity”. Look him up, it’s time he became common reading again.

Do you agree with his premise below?

“Stupidity is a more dangerous enemy of the good than malice. One may protest against evil; it can be exposed and, if need be, prevented by use of force... Against stupidity we are defenseless. Neither protests nor the use of force accomplish anything here; reasons fall on deaf ears...”. Dietrich Bonhoeffer

 

[Ross Dolan]

I go on so about ethics and national character and why it’s important in regard to discussing MAGA and Trump. I never give the sources credit. Obviously it’s a philosophical based argument but I never cite the important philosophers. That’s a mistake. Here’s a potent one: Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Commonly enough known in the early post WW2 period few have heard of him today and that is sad. I’ve been aware of him since high school as he was assigned reading.

He was a Lutheran Pastor, theologian, author and I’d claim philosopher who died at the hands of The NAZI government in 1945 by hanging. Having been left in prison for two years prior his execution. His crime, helping Jews flee Germany.

He wrote of what lead to otherwise good people to abandon their faith and their ethical knowledge of good vs. evil that allowed them to support, either by their direct involvement or in their silence, evil on the level of the Third Reich. He called it a kind of “stupidity”. Look him up, it’s time he became common reading again.

Do you agree with his premise below?

“Stupidity is a more dangerous enemy of the good than malice. One may protest against evil; it can be exposed and, if need be, prevented by use of force... Against stupidity we are defenseless. Neither protests nor the use of force accomplish anything here; reasons fall on deaf ears...”. Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Thank you for this and your other thoughtful posts, MD.

Yeah, I agree with the Bonhoeffer premise you cited. Stupidity is incredibly dangerous in the political theater...as we have seen with the MAGA morons stupidly helping in the destruction of the US...and by extension, the rest of the world.

Stupidity, we notice, is increasing its negative impact in Europe and South America. Some people can be woken without first suffering a great calamity. Stupid people need the calamity.

 

[Yakuda]

I go on so about ethics and national character and why it’s important in regard to discussing MAGA and Trump. I never give the sources credit. Obviously it’s a philosophical based argument but I never cite the important philosophers. That’s a mistake. Here’s a potent one: Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Commonly enough known in the early post WW2 period few have heard of him today and that is sad. I’ve been aware of him since high school as he was assigned reading.

He was a Lutheran Pastor, theologian, author and I’d claim philosopher who died at the hands of The NAZI government in 1945 by hanging. Having been left in prison for two years prior his execution. His crime, helping Jews flee Germany.

He wrote of what lead to otherwise good people to abandon their faith and their ethical knowledge of good vs. evil that allowed them to support, either by their direct involvement or in their silence, evil on the level of the Third Reich. He called it a kind of “stupidity”. Look him up, it’s time he became common reading again.

Do you agree with his premise below?

“Stupidity is a more dangerous enemy of the good than malice. One may protest against evil; it can be exposed and, if need be, prevented by use of force... Against stupidity we are defenseless. Neither protests nor the use of force accomplish anything here; reasons fall on deaf ears...”. Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Bonhoeffer is absolutely right, thats not the question. The real question is what do people perceive as evil and how did they reach that conclusion. We actually have people who defend a woman who strangled her three innocent children. The fact that that action was not universally condemned as evil should frighten the shit out of us but it doesnt seem to.

 

[ModernDiogenes]

Bonhoeffer is absolutely right, thats not the question. The real question is what do people perceive as evil and how did they reach that conclusion.

I’m not stating there aren’t exceptions to the rule. There are always exceptions to the rule. Though of one’s ethical calculus is binary, as mine is, those exceptions are very limited. Good is almost always obviously good and evil is almost always obviously evil.

We actually have people who defend a woman who strangled her three innocent children. The fact that that action was not universally condemned as evil should frighten the shit out of us but it doesnt seem to.

The jury is literally still out on that as she could be prosecuted again, and they ought to do the case comes to a jury determined conclusion.

 

[Yakuda]

I’m not stating there aren’t exceptions to the rule. There are always exceptions to the rule. Though of one’s ethical calculus is binary, as mine is, those exceptions are very limited. Good is almost always obviously good and evil is almost always obviously evil.




The jury is literally still out on that as she could be prosecuted again, and they ought to do the case comes to a jury determined conclusion.

You and I may agree on the obvious of whats good and whats evil but its far from unanymous and I dont think its stupidity that crates the problem.
Whether the jury is out or not is irrelevant to the fact that there are people who cannot and will not condemn the action of strangling three innocent children. The hung jury proves my point. One of the juror said,

“He had the hardest time getting off the fact that Lindsay viciously killed her children,”

REALLY?????? The hold out juror just couldnt get off that fact. What a bastard.

 

[ModernDiogenes]

You and I may agree on the obvious of whats good and whats evil but its far from unanymous and I dont think its stupidity that crates the problem.

But that’s my point, and Bonhoeffer’s. When society isn’t being “stupid” the vast majority of us do not have a problem finding consensus on evil the level of a Bernie Madoff or a Donald Trump. It’s obvious to us because there is a society wide standard being broken.

The problem is when a significant number of us go off script and suddenly can’t tell that a woman who strangles her three children may be flying a mental health asterisk but the act is still evil regardless of that. Just as I’m sure both Madoff and Trump are pathological cases, that’s not a sufficient excuse not to judge them a danger to society.

Back when “that stuff couldn’t happen here” we knew that. It’s that we’ve gotten “stupid” and forgotten is the reason it can happen here now. Which was Bonhoeffer’s point about why it happened in Germany.

 

[Yakuda]

But that’s my point, and Bonhoeffer’s. When society isn’t being “stupid” the vast majority of us do not have a problem finding consensus on evil the level of a Bernie Madoff or a Donald Trump. It’s obvious to us because there is a society wide standard being broken.

The problem is when a significant number of us go off script and suddenly can’t tell that a woman who strangles her three children may be flying a mental health asterisk but the act is still evil regardless of that. Just as I’m sure both Madoff and Trump are pathological cases, that’s not a sufficient excuse not to judge them a danger to society.

Back when “that stuff couldn’t happen here” we knew that. It’s that we’ve gotten “stupid” and forgotten is the reason it can happen here now. Which was Bonhoeffer’s point about why it happened

Referring to trump as evil is a sign that you're not serious. If you think what Madoff did and what trump has done are equivalent then talking to you is meaningless. Trump may not be a shining star of virtue but he is far from evil. Thats just your leftist programming.

You're sure they are "pathological cases" based on your extensive interviewing of both of them? Look I get that you hate trump but youre letting it rule your better judgment however vast that might be. For years trump was referred to, by many people, as a "existential threat to democracy" but when he was to assume power for a second term those people did absolutely NOTHING to stop him. Bonhoeffer himself said

"Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act."

Heres where you lose me to say "it couldnt happen here" is to hold some delusional belief that things happen in a vacuum but I think it was Socrates who said "The unexamined life is not worth living". I suspect that will go right past you.

 

[ModernDiogenes]

Referring to trump as evil is a sign that you're not serious. If you think what Madoff did and what trump has done are equivalent then talking to you is meaningless. Trump may not be a shining star of virtue but he is far from evil. Thats just your leftist programming.

I’m a CONSERVATIVE with a CONSERVATIVE’s morality.

That MAGA can not discern a bad person when they encounter one is specifically the thing Bonhoeffer was addressing

Madoff stole billions from 40 thousand victims. Trump had at least that many and he’s stolen by fraud HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS. Not billions but isn’t hundreds of millions enough?

His court ordered civil restitution to those victims alone is over SIX HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS.

There are the over 4000 victims of the phony university alone and that was $25 million. All the people he stuck with his bogus crypto coin and mem investments that went bust and cost people millions that Trump pocketed. The Truth Social IPO that lost others millions total. ($58.2 million in that).

Then he cheated his brother of his inheritance of their dead father’s fortune on that brother’s death bed.

The three wives he publicly humiliated.

The lies he compulsively tell that count in the tens of thousands.

What does it take to get MAGA types to recognize a pathological malignant narcissist? Does have to kick their dog or something?

That MAGA insists in not seeing Trump for what he is IS precisely the kind of thing Bonhoeffer was addressing.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Stupidity is only one thing dangerous to a nation / people or society. Some others are:

Diversity.

Social hedonism. When anything goes, bad things happen.

Moral ambiguity.

Lack of personal responsibility.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

I’m a CONSERVATIVE with a CONSERVATIVE’s morality.

That MAGA can not discern a bad person when they encounter one is specifically the thing Bonhoeffer was addressing

Madoff stole billions from 40 thousand victims. Trump had at least that many and he’s stolen by fraud HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS. Not billions but isn’t hundreds of millions enough?

His court ordered civil restitution to those victims alone is over SIX HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS.

There are the over 4000 victims of the phony university alone and that was $25 million. All the people he stuck with his bogus crypto coin and mem investments that went bust and cost people millions that Trump pocketed. The Truth Social IPO that lost others millions total. ($58.2 million in that).

Then he cheated his brother of his inheritance of their dead father’s fortune on that brother’s death bed.

The three wives he publicly humiliated.

The lies he compulsively tell that count in the tens of thousands.

What does it take to get MAGA types to recognize a pathological malignant narcissist? Does have to kick their dog or something?

That MAGA insists in not seeing Trump for what he is IS precisely the kind of thing Bonhoeffer was addressing.

As far as Trump goes, we as a nation, are done with him in two years. He can go back to finding suckers to enrich himself all he wants.

 

[ModernDiogenes]

Stupidity is only one thing dangerous to a nation / people or society. Some others are:

Diversity.

How is diversity dangerous?

Moral ambiguity.

Lack of personal responsibility.

Those two of the above are part and parcel of the lapse of ethical judgement Bonhoeffer is describing. You can’t lose sight of the understanding that character and ethics are a primary art of good leadership and required to be worthy of powerful positions without the electorate is suffering moral ambiguity and lacking responsibility to make ethical choices.

 

[Yakuda]

I’m a CONSERVATIVE with a CONSERVATIVE’s morality.

That MAGA can not discern a bad person when they encounter one is specifically the thing Bonhoeffer was addressing

Madoff stole billions from 40 thousand victims. Trump had at least that many and he’s stolen by fraud HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS. Not billions but isn’t hundreds of millions enough?

His court ordered civil restitution to those victims alone is over SIX HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS.

There are the over 4000 victims of the phony university alone and that was $25 million. All the people he stuck with his bogus crypto coin and mem investments that went bust and cost people millions that Trump pocketed. The Truth Social IPO that lost others millions total. ($58.2 million in that).

Then he cheated his brother of his inheritance of their dead father’s fortune on that brother’s death bed.

The three wives he publicly humiliated.

The lies he compulsively tell that count in the tens of thousands.

What does it take to get MAGA types to recognize a pathological malignant narcissist? Does have to kick their dog or something?

That MAGA insists in not seeing Trump for what he is IS precisely the kind of thing Bonhoeffer was addressing.

I see trump for exactly what he is and when I had other reasonable choices I voted for those other choices. This whining about how bad, evil, corrupt, immoral etc etc etc trump is is meaningless gum flapping. It was trump or harris. Thats all that mattered.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

How is diversity dangerous?

Lots of it in language, culture, arts, science, etc., breeds division in a society. Rather than a society that has shared values, goals, language, you get a polyglot of these that breaks society down into what are essentially tribes. The tribes then compete rather than work together. Language and culture can become barriers to being part of society as a whole.

 

[ModernDiogenes]

I see trump for exactly what he is and when I had other reasonable choices I voted for those other choices. This whining about how bad, evil, corrupt, immoral etc etc etc trump is is meaningless gum flapping. It was trump or harris. Thats all that mattered.

And there you have it. The basis of the Bonhoeffer argument and my own.

The DISCERNMENT issue that looks at a standard issue reg. org. polihack and a Donald Trump and somehow thinks the one with the 4000+ lawsuits, the civil court find us of hundreds of millions in fraud, the thousands of victims of that fraud, the betrayal of family, wives, peers, contracted, staff, etc. all who gave documented that betrayal in court cases and books,

That Trump is the lesser evil. The cleaner of the swamp.

That is PRECISELY what Bonhoeffer speaks to. It’s precisely what I’ve been speaking to.

 

[ModernDiogenes]

Lots of it in language, culture, arts, science, etc., breeds division in a society. Rather than a society that has shared values, goals, language, you get a polyglot of these that breaks society down into what are essentially tribes. The tribes then compete rather than work together. Language and culture can become barriers to being part of society as a whole.

Not if there is tolerance and the MELTING POT. .

We’ve lost our way in that regard.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Not if there is tolerance and the MELTING POT. .

We’ve lost our way in that regard.

We have, indeed lost our way.

Too bad that...especially considering that actually, we never got to where we should have been...with much more toleration for others. But with some of the people posting in defense of the MAGA position, getting more tolerant is not easy.

 

[Yakuda]

And there you have it. The basis of the Bonhoeffer argument and my own.

The DISCERNMENT issue that looks at a standard issue reg. org. polihack and a Donald Trump and somehow thinks the one with the 4000+ lawsuits, the civil court find us of hundreds of millions in fraud, the thousands of victims of that fraud, the betrayal of family, wives, peers, contracted, staff, etc. all who gave documented that betrayal in court cases and books,

That Trump is the lesser evil. The cleaner of the swamp.

That is PRECISELY what Bonhoeffer speaks to. It’s precisely what I’ve been speaking to.

Ah yes I almost forget Im dealing with, a leftist who goes through life thinking the world should be the way they imagine it in their small first level thinker minds. You people really fucking hate reality dont you?

Its an unfortunate fact that in America the likelihood that any president that gets elected will be either a republican or a democrat is astronomically high. This is true no matter what your fairy godmother has told you. So in any given election people have to make a choice. Now here is where you need actually make an argument and explain to me why i should have voted for the kamal instead of trump. What I suspect is all you will be able to muster is "orange man bad" but who knows maybe you're the one democrat whose brain stem is connected. I cant wait to find out.

 

[ModernDiogenes]

Ah yes I almost forget Im dealing with, a leftist who goes through life thinking the world should be the way they imagine it in their small first level thinker minds. You people really fucking hate reality dont you?

Absolute nonsense.

You can’t label me something I’m obviously not because you don’t like what I’m saying and have no legitimate counter for it.

My argument is based on METRICS. You put Harris, the standard issue pol with all the problems related to and Trump, the documented fraud with thousands of victims and books, articles, court testimony, etc.. all telling the story of precisely crooked he is and MAGA thinks the reg. org. polihack is the bigger bad guy.

MAGA has DISCERNMENT issues.

Those shaded lenses MAGA wears is precisely the “stupid” Bonhoeffer addresses. It’s how truly bad people wind up with real power handed to them.

 

[Yakuda]

Absolute nonsense.

You can’t label me something I’m obviously not because you don’t like what I’m saying and have no legitimate counter for it.

My argument is based on METRICS. You put Harris, the standard issue pol with all the problems related to and Trump, the documented fraud with thousands of victims and books, articles, court testimony, etc.. all telling the story of precisely crooked he is and MAGA thinks the reg. org. polihack is the bigger bad guy.

MAGA has DISCERNMENT issues.

Those shaded lenses MAGA wears is precisely the “stupid” Bonhoeffer addresses. It’s how truly bad people wind up with real power handed to them.

I can do whatever the fuck I please. Dont like it dont reply to me.

No you need to grow the fuck up. However bad you think trump is the kamal would have been a thousand times worse for America. If you cant see that then youre the stupid one

 

[Uncensored2008]

I go on so about ethics and national character and why it’s important in regard to discussing MAGA and Trump. I never give the sources credit. Obviously it’s a philosophical based argument but I never cite the important philosophers. That’s a mistake. Here’s a potent one: Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Commonly enough known in the early post WW2 period few have heard of him today and that is sad. I’ve been aware of him since high school as he was assigned reading.

He was a Lutheran Pastor, theologian, author and I’d claim philosopher who died at the hands of The NAZI government in 1945 by hanging. Having been left in prison for two years prior his execution. His crime, helping Jews flee Germany.

He wrote of what lead to otherwise good people to abandon their faith and their ethical knowledge of good vs. evil that allowed them to support, either by their direct involvement or in their silence, evil on the level of the Third Reich. He called it a kind of “stupidity”. Look him up, it’s time he became common reading again.

Do you agree with his premise below?

“Stupidity is a more dangerous enemy of the good than malice. One may protest against evil; it can be exposed and, if need be, prevented by use of force... Against stupidity we are defenseless. Neither protests nor the use of force accomplish anything here; reasons fall on deaf ears...”. Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Physician, heal thyself.