Elites are thriving under Trump

Frank Apisa said:
Unfortunately, Thing...one thing that has to be factored in...is...

...NO MATTER WHAT...THERE WILL NEVER BE MORE JOBS...AND HIGHER WAGES.

It just cannot happen using the system now in place.

Every corporation is REQUIRED to make as much money as possible...and that invariably means cutting labor costs. Fewer people being paid...and paying the ones being paid as little as possible.

The entire system has to crash...and be replaced.

I used to think it could be tweaked into some sort of system that would work. But as it stands now...not even tweaking will accomplish anything.
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There will never be more jobs? Ok, I'll bite. How does a market based capitalistic system mean there won't be new jobs?
 
cawacko said:
There will never be more jobs? Ok, I'll bite. How does a market based capitalistic system mean there won't be new jobs?
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"Market based"..."socialistic based"..."communist based"...doesn't mean diddly squat.

There will be fewer and fewer jobs for humans because the machines are taking over.

The technological growth has become geometric; it was arithmetic for most of human existence.

We simply do not need as much human labor to facilitate what the entirety needs and wants.

Capitalists think they've got the one-up in this deal...but if anything, the beginnings of the crash will be in the capitalistic economies...especially that of America.
 
Frank Apisa said:
The only way to come out of this mess we are in (at the hands of both Democrats and Republicans)...is to think WAY, WAY, WAY, WAY outside the box.

Not an easy thing to do.

I suggest not envisioning the problem in dollar and cents terms...costs, debt, taxes, etc.

Here is a different way to look at it:

What we would like to see is a society where everyone has sufficient...enough so that food, shelter, medical care, education, communication, transportation is SUFFICIENT...and with a bit of extra, so that some comfort can be had.

Do we have (or can we obtain) enough food to go around? Would rich people have to eat less in order for us all to have food?

Do we have (or can we obtain) enough shelter so that no one has to sleep in the cold? Would rich people have to give up shelter in order for everyone to have shelter?

Do we have (or can we obtain) enough medical care for everyone? Would rich people have to give up medical care in order for everyone to have adequate?

Do we have (or can we obtain) adequate facilities for educational opportunity for everyone? Would the rich people have to stay more stupid in order for everyone to get an education?

Do we have (or can we obtain) enough cell phones for everyone. Would the rich people have to be without communication for that to happen?

Same thing for transportation. Can we supply transportation for everyone...without the rich having to stay home locked?
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I am opposed to cellphones in every pocket. They are environmentally unfriendly. That said, you have a lot of false dichotomy going there. The rich may not have to give up healthcare to afford healthcare for all, but they may have to give up something else.
 
Frank Apisa said:
"Market based"..."socialistic based"..."communist based"...doesn't mean diddly squat.

There will be fewer and fewer jobs for humans because the machines are taking over.

The technological growth has become geometric; it was arithmetic for most of human existence.

We simply do not need as much human labor to facilitate what the entirety needs and wants.

Capitalists think they've got the one-up in this deal...but if anything, the beginnings of the crash will be in the capitalistic economies...especially that of America.
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You're not the only one who has a dire prediction of the future with machines taking over but with new technology comes new jobs. Times change and the world will continue to change along with it. The question is are we educating our young people to be prepared to deal with such a future.
 
Kacper said:
I am opposed to cellphones in every pocket. They are environmentally unfriendly. That said, you have a lot of false dichotomy going there. The rich may not have to give up healthcare to afford healthcare for all, but they may have to give up something else.
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Really?

So what would they have to give up?

Are you saying that we are not intelligent enough to work it out so that everyone has healthcare...without short changing the rich?
 
cawacko said:
You're not the only one who has a dire prediction of the future with machines taking over but with new technology comes new jobs. Times change and the world will continue to change along with it. The question is are we educating our young people to be prepared to deal with such a future.
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Yeah, yeah.

All we have to do is to educate our young people, ca, and the folk who run the corporations are gonna say, "We gotta hire more people...and we gotta pay them much better wages. It is the right thing to do...the patriotic thing to do."

RIGHT??????
 
Frank Apisa said:
Yeah, yeah.

All we have to do is to educate our young people, ca, and the folk who run the corporations are gonna say, "We gotta hire more people...and we gotta pay them much better wages. It is the right thing to do...the patriotic thing to do."

RIGHT??????
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i'm sorry Frank if you aren't familiar with how markets work. How do any of us have jobs today with all the technological change that's occurred over the past four decades?
 
cawacko said:
i'm sorry Frank if you aren't familiar with how markets work. How do any of us have jobs today with all the technological change that's occurred over the past four decades?
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Okay...don't worry about a thing then.

I mean...what could go wrong?
 
cawacko said:
So the only two options are don't worry about a thing or basically the world's going to end? There are no options for the future other than extremes?
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I certainly did not propose "the world's going to end" as one end of a two-option scenario, ca.

I did not do that at all.

Here's what I said:


"Market based"..."socialistic based"..."communist based"...doesn't mean diddly squat.
There will be fewer and fewer jobs for humans because the machines are taking over.
The technological growth has become geometric; it was arithmetic for most of human existence.
We simply do not need as much human labor to facilitate what the entirety needs and wants.
Capitalists think they've got the one-up in this deal...but if anything, the beginnings of the crash will be in the capitalistic economies...especially that of America.

I think we will make the moves I see as necessary eventually.

I just think that planning ahead rather than letting the needed moves overtake us...makes sense.

Here...let me write your response for you: So...what are the "needed moves" Frank?

Right?
 
Frank Apisa said:
Really?

So what would they have to give up?

Are you saying that we are not intelligent enough to work it out so that everyone has healthcare...without short changing the rich?
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Yes.

Whatever they otherwise would have spent that added tax burden on.

Yes. You will be short-changing rich doctors, rich defense contractors, rich somebody.
 
Kacper said:
Yes.

Whatever they otherwise would have spent that added tax burden on.

Yes. You will be short-changing rich doctors, rich defense contractors, rich somebody.
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No...we would not be.

They can still make as much as they want.

What I am saying is that the technology is making human toil less and less valuable...at a geometrically progressing rate.

It is.

We have got to level the playing field for labor...put it in reasonable competition with capital. As it is now...capital will win out over labor every time.

That can be changed...AND SHOULD BE CHANGED.
 
Frank Apisa said:
No...we would not be.

They can still make as much as they want.

What I am saying is that the technology is making human toil less and less valuable...at a geometrically progressing rate.

It is.

We have got to level the playing field for labor...put it in reasonable competition with capital. As it is now...capital will win out over labor every time.

That can be changed...AND SHOULD BE CHANGED.
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How much would they have to pay you to wipe an old man's butt or shave it for surgery? There are limits to technology.
 
Kacper said:
How much would they have to pay you to wipe an old man's butt or shave it for surgery? There are limits to technology.
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There ARE limits to technology. BUT...for jobs that machines can be devised to do...the machines will mostly do the jobs more efficiently and at less cost than humans.

Under the right circumstances...they would have to pay me a shitload of money to wipe an old man's ass (I'm an old man, though, and I wipe my own) or shave it for surgery.

Under the right circumstances..."they" would have to pay ANYONE a shitload of money to do those kinds of jobs.

That is as it should be these days. The days of the rich getting grunt work done for coolie wages...SHOULD END.
 
This is not personal at Frank but it's probably not surprising an older person who spent most his life without most of today's technologies is so afraid of it. Again, there are people predicting tech and AI could elimante half the work force but they definitely aren't the norm. Technology provides challenges but also opportunities. And it's pretty hard to turn back from it to a 1950's style economy
 
Frank Apisa said:
There ARE limits to technology. BUT...for jobs that machines can be devised to do...the machines will mostly do the jobs more efficiently and at less cost than humans.

Under the right circumstances...they would have to pay me a shitload of money to wipe an old man's ass (I'm an old man, though, and I wipe my own) or shave it for surgery.

Under the right circumstances..."they" would have to pay ANYONE a shitload of money to do those kinds of jobs.

That is as it should be these days. The days of the rich getting grunt work done for coolie wages...SHOULD END.
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I have had a couple people who do laser surgery as well as traditional meatball stuff tell me that scalpel surgery is still better generally for most things because scalpel incisions are smaller and heal faster as the laser cauterize the blood vessels that are needed to heal back. I don't see the system replacing the humans with technology anytime in my lifetime.
 
cawacko said:
This is not personal at Frank but it's probably not surprising an older person who spent most his life without most of today's technologies is so afraid of it. Again, there are people predicting tech and AI could elimante half the work force but they definitely aren't the norm. Technology provides challenges but also opportunities. And it's pretty hard to turn back from it to a 1950's style economy
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I am NOT afraid of it.

I have dreamed of it...longed for it. I was a young sci-fi enthusiast. The technology has already surpassed the dreams of my youth...and I marvel at it.

We have the makings of a Utopia of sorts...a society with WILLING slaves in numbers previous societies could only dream of. We have machines that can do the work of billions...not millions, but billions. We either have (or can easily devise) machines to do almost all of the work that needs doing; machines that can provide us with almost all of the goods we need and want.

When I said that human labor has become less and less valuable...what I am, in effect, saying is that we do not need humans doing that much work.

Yet we have some people working more than one job...with spouses who also work...just to keep head above water.

We are taking an incredibly wonderful miracle in human affairs...and turning it into a nightmare. We are taking a great blessing...and making it a devastating liability.

Be part of the group that ignores that if you must, ca...but I respectfully suggest that anyone doing so ought be ashamed.
 
Kacper said:
I have had a couple people who do laser surgery as well as traditional meatball stuff tell me that scalpel surgery is still better generally for most things because scalpel incisions are smaller and heal faster as the laser cauterize the blood vessels that are needed to heal back. I don't see the system replacing the humans with technology anytime in my lifetime.
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Yeah...and I don't imagine bartenders or nurses will be replaced by mechanical shoulders to cry on...or dispensers of TLC. But the problem is much more serious than you think, Kacper.

If you do not see it as such...fine.
 
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