Oklahoma Bible mandate challenged in Court

[Jerry Mathers]

The opinion of the human race. I'm sure if you asked the whales they wouldn't much care one way or the other who killed whom. Just as we don't much care for the strife and war in other high intelligence animals.




So you have opted to simply IGNORE WHAT I HAVE SAID OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. No wonder you sucked at school so bad you couldn't finish a grad degree.



YES! Again yes! These "moral issues" of which you speak are ONLY important to humans.

Do you HONESTLY think that cats care about our murder rate?



At least I know WHY it is immoral. All you have is because God told you so.

I'd ask you about Euthyphro but I see you already resolved the dilemma.

the opinion of the human race?

gee that's not vague.

morality is a set of attitudes and behaviors that facilitate voluntary, cooperative, creative and mutually beneficial relationships.

 

[Cypress]

Thanks for you tacit admission that murder is wrong ONLY because an invisible sky being beamed it into your mind before you were born.

The other thing this thread established is that you are no longer defending your idea that everything has to be physical and material; that the immaterial can't exist. We've established that the immaterial can and does exist, aka logic, math, beneficence, justice, prudence, etc.

(I'm so glad of my superior morality. You can count on me to know right from wrong because I have a basis!

Who cares what you think. You are an insignificant and irrelevant individual. What we need are universal values based on a principle higher than your opinion or on the cultural conventions of any society.

You think murder is wrong, but Nazi Germany act like it's right.

 

[Jerry Mathers]

What we need are universal values based on a principle higher than your opinion or on the cultural conventions of any society.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you; this is the sum of the law and the prophets.

 

[murph63]

What we need are universal values based on a principle higher than your opinion or on the cultural conventions of any society.

That's a nice imaginary concept. I'm glad it brings you peace so you don't have to think about your morality.

Whatever God tells you to do you will do.

I've read that book.

 

[Into the Night]

Exactly. Your worldview inevitably leads to the conclusion that there is no objective morality, no absolute right and wrong. There is only opinion and social convention.
If killing, conquest, and pillaging serve the interest of a society or nation, it is not inherently wrong for them to believe in that

Murder is illegal, Cyborg.
Pillaging is illegal.

Doesn't bother me in the least for you to admit your worldview does not lead to a belief in absolute right and wrong, that there is no standard for right action beyond opinion and convention.

So you think it's okay to just ignore the law and break it on a whim, eh?

There is no Darwinian evolutionary benefit to sacrificing your tribe's resources to help competitors, rivals, strangers, enemies, the infirm, or the diseased.

Darwin did not create the Theory of Evolution. That was created in ancient Greece. It is not a theory of science.
Darwin created the Theory of Natural Selection, falsified due to inconsistencies both internal and external. It is no longer a theory at all.

Oatmeal cookie is not an abstract immaterial value like beneficence, justice, or temperance, and the taste of oatmeal cookies is an entirely subjective experience.
Rape and murder are not open to subjective opinion in my worldview.
.

...and your point...?

 

[Into the Night]

Science seems to disagree with you (again)

The evolution of extraordinary self-sacrifice - Scientific Reports

From a theoretical perspective, individuals are expected to sacrifice their welfare only when the benefits outweigh the costs. In nature, however, the costs of altruism and spite can be extreme, as in cases of irreversible sterility and self-destructive weaponry. Here we show that...

www.nature.com

Science is not a magazine.
The Theory of Evolution is not a theory of science. It is not falsifiable.

 

[Into the Night]

Thanks for you tacit admission that murder is wrong ONLY because an invisible sky being beamed it into your mind before you were born.

What is this 'invisible sky being'? Are you trying to describe Rainbow Fart Unicorn god again?

(I'm so glad of my superior morality.

Elitism.

You can count on me to know right from wrong because I have a basis.

...which is...?

You are untrustworthy because you think invisible beings beam the rules into your head. That's pretty fucked up.)

What invisible beings? What do your Rainbow Fart Magic Unicorns have to do with anything?

 

[Into the Night]

Nope. If you were correct, murder, rape, lying, cheating, greed, hubris, selfishness wouldn't be so widespread.

I'm perfectly satisfied with the way this discussion concluded:

with you admitting...

your world view is moral relativism,​

morality in your worldview is based on opinion or cultural convention,​

and the reason you don't say a bear can commit murder but a human can is just due to arbitrary relativistic convention.​

No, Cyborg. It's the law.

 

[Into the Night]

the opinion of the human race?

gee that's not vague.

morality is a set of attitudes and behaviors that facilitate voluntary, cooperative, creative and mutually beneficial relationships.

So a mobster is moral.
His attitudes and behavior facilitates voluntary, cooperative, creative, and mutually beneficial relationships with the other mobsters.
That's called a 'gang', NoName.

 

[Cypress]

That's a nice imaginary concept. I'm glad it brings you peace so you don't have to think about your morality.

Whatever God tells you to do you will do.

I've read that book.

See, in the worldview you have set up, you cannot say that gassing Jews is evil and absolutely objectively wrong.

It's just your opinion that it's wrong.

To Nazi Germany it made perfect sense to cull their nation of the Jews, the disabled, the mentally retarded. To them it would benefit the nation. It is totally justified to them by scientific Darwinian evolution.

That is the kind of moral relativism you have to sign up for in a strictly physical materialistic view of life, the universe, and everything.

 

[Jerry Mathers]

So a mobster is moral.

not his victims.

His attitudes and behavior facilitates voluntary, cooperative, creative, and mutually beneficial relationships with the other mobsters.
That's called a 'gang', NoName.

the golden rule applies to all humanity.

not just other mobsters.

the whole mob group itself is wrong for victimizing the greater society.

you are fail.

you personify failure.

why do you hate jesus?

 

[Into the Night]

See, in the worldview you have set up, you cannot say that gassing Jews is evil and absolutely objectively wrong.

It's just your opinion that it's wrong.

To Nazi Germany it made perfect sense to cull their nation of the Jews, the disabled, the mentally retarded. To them it would benefit the nation. It is totally justified to them by scientific Darwinian evolution.

Darwin did not create the Theory of Evolution, Cyborg. It is not a theory of science either. It is a religion.

That is the kind of moral relativism you have to sign up for in a strictly physical materialistic view of life, the universe, and everything.

The Universe is unorganized, Cyborg.

 

[Into the Night]

not his victims.

the golden rule applies to all humanity.

not just other mobsters.

the whole mob group itself is wrong for victimizing the greater society.

you are fail.

you personify failure.

why do you hate jesus?

Who said I hate Jesus Christ (other than you)?

 

[murph63]

See, in the worldview you have set up, you cannot say that gassing Jews is evil and absolutely objectively wrong.

But I can say it is wrong.

It's just your opinion that it's wrong.

No, it is objectively wrong to destabilize the social safety net by arbitarily selecting groups out to kill. That makes society less stable and produces a survival deficit for all involved.

To Nazi Germany it made perfect sense to cull their nation of the Jews,

No it didn't. It was the same ol' Pogroms that Christians had been running against the Jews since time immemorial.

the disabled, the mentally retarded. To them it would benefit the nation. It is totally justified to them by scientific Darwinian evolution.

cf above. I can't repeat it a zillion times, just a billion for you.

That is the kind of moral relativism you have to sign up for in a strictly physical materialistic view of life, the universe, and everything.

So you're calling me a Nazi? Godwin much?

 

[Cypress]

But I can say it is wrong.

That's doesn't make it objectively wrong. It's just opinion and convention.

And who cares what you say as an insignificant individual? The Russians feel it is totally justified for their society to launch an unprovoked attack on Ukrainians and kill tens of thousands of their civilians.

In your worldview, humans are nothing more than collections of electrons and quarks. Electrons and quarks have no inherent innate value .

No, it is objectively wrong to destabilize the social safety net by arbitarily selecting groups out to kill.

Nope. Oskar Schindler was not thinking about how he needed to stabilize society when he decided to risk his life to save thousands of Jews.

He was thinking about the absolute evil he was witnessing.

But it funny how you are backtracking and trying to link your worldview to objective absolute morality now. You are obviously sensing that your worldview of moral relativism is on shaky ground.

So you're calling me a Nazi? Godwin much?

You know very well I never called you that.

But as a moral relativist, you cannot say what gassing Jews is absolutely, objectively wrong. It may be in your opinion. But that is not an opinion shared by European Nazis, fascists, and Aryan supremacists.

 

[Cypress]

No, Cyborg. It's the law.

German law allowed for the liquidation of the disabled and mentally handicapped.

Russian law allows for the unprovoked attack on Ukrainians.

African social custom allows for the genital mutilation of girls.

Until recently, American law allowed for the discrimination and oppression of anyone of African heritage.

 

[Cypress]

it is objectively wrong to destabilize the social safety net by arbitarily selecting groups out to kill. That makes society less stable and produces a survival deficit for all involved!

Give me a break.

You do not restrain yourself from murdering, raping, stealing because you are thinking about how you can "stabilize society."

You restrain yourself because you have an internal moral compass that makes a distinction between absolute objective right and wrong and which tells you what you ought to do.

There is no scientific Darwinian evolutionary benefit to sacrificing your resources to help competitors, rivals, strangers, the infirm, the disabled. Many human societies have practiced a 'might makes right' cultural ethos, and in their opinion it benefited their societies.

 

[Jerry Mathers]

No, it is objectively wrong to destabilize the social safety net by arbitarily selecting groups out to kill. That makes society less stable and produces a survival deficit for all involved.

here is where you have flushed out the Nazis, good on you for that.

Nazis question whether survival deficits are wrong, because they have nihilistically devalued human life.

good job murph.

you took it the crux.

 

[murph63]

That's doesn't make it objectively wrong. It's just opinion and convention.

It is not just a convention anymore than bipedal locomotion is a "convention". It is built into social animals.

Even ANTS have "proper behavior" modes. Social animals across the spectrum have "rules" which ensure that social group is stable.

And, again, for the zillionth time there IS NOT OBJECTIVE MORALITY.

And who cares what you say as an insignificant individual?

I honestly don't know how to dumb it down sufficiently for you. I've explained it about a billion times to you how it works and why.

The fact that you DENY BIOLOGY is only a problem for you.

The Russians feel it is totally justified for their society to launch an unprovoked attack on Ukrainians and kill tens of thousands of their civilians.

And we as the rest of the world can support the work of Ukraine to STOP that. We can and have taken action AGAINST Russia (except for your president Trump who likes Putin)

In your worldview, humans are nothing more than collections of electrons and quarks. Electrons and quarks have no inherent innate value .

Unless you want to exist. If that's the case then electrons are quarks are EXTREMELY valuable.
ng about the absolute evil he was witnessing.

But it funny how you are backtracking

Do you ever engage with the actual person or do you just make up stories and accuse others of things?

and trying to link your worldview to objective absolute morality now.

Lie. But then your morality seems to accept lies and mischaracterizations of others as "virtue".

You are obviously sensing that your worldview of moral relativism is on shaky ground.

It is not. But unlike you I have a reason. I don't just believe God because mommy told me to believe God.

You know very well I never called you that.

But as a moral relativist, you cannot say what gassing Jews is absolutely, objectively wrong.

STOP GODWINING THE THREAD. I can and do, fully within my proposed moral structure say that it is wrong. It's been explained to you so many times I have to assume at this point that you are mentally challenged and the words are too big for you.

 

[murph63]

German law allowed for the liquidation of the disabled and mentally handicapped.

Russian law allows for the unprovoked attack on Ukrainians.

African social custom allows for the genital mutilation of girls.

Until recently, American law allowed for the discrimination and oppression of anyone of African heritage.

And AMERICAN LAW SUPPORTED BY THE VARIOUS CHURCHES IN THE SOUTH MADE SLAVERY LEGAL.

So what was it about CHRISTIANITY that allowed them to believe Slavery was a virtue?????