The left hates history
- Thread starter Diogenes
- Start date
Sowell doesn't have his facts straight.
Question: Were more whites than blacks brought as slaves to north america?
Search Assist
No, more black Africans were brought as slaves to North America than whites. The vast majority of enslaved individuals transported across the Atlantic were black Africans, with estimates of about 10 to 12 million brought to the Americas, compared to a much smaller number of white slaves.
WikipediaOverview of Slave Populations in North America
The transatlantic slave trade primarily involved the transportation of enslaved individuals from Africa to the Americas.
Comparison of Enslaved Populations
| Ethnicity | Estimated Numbers Brought to North America |
|---|---|
| Black Africans | 10 to 12 million |
| White Europeans | Significantly fewer than black Africans |
Key Points
- The vast majority of enslaved individuals transported to North America were black Africans.
- Estimates suggest that about 10 to 12 million black Africans were brought to the Americas, while the number of white slaves was much smaller.
- The enslavement of white individuals did occur, particularly in specific historical contexts, but it was not on the same scale as that of black Africans.
Wikipedia
Christiecrite claims Sowell didn't have his facts straight.
Sowell’s facts check out on the core numbers.
The quote is genuine (from his 2014 column “Irresponsible Education” and similar passages in Black Rednecks and White Liberals).
The numbers
- Africans brought to the territory that became the United States: The Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade Database (Slave Voyages) shows roughly 388,000 arrived directly on the North American mainland. Broader estimates for the 13 colonies + later U.S. typically fall in the 300,000–400,000 range. This is a small fraction of the ~12.5 million Africans embarked for the entire Americas.
- Europeans enslaved in North Africa (Barbary Coast): Historian Robert C. Davis (Ohio State), in Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters and related work, estimates 1–1.25 million European Christians captured and enslaved by Barbary corsairs (primarily Algiers, Tunis, Tripoli, and Morocco) from roughly 1530–1780. Earlier lower estimates existed, but Davis’s figure—based on contemporary observations, ransom records, and population replenishment calculations—is the one most frequently cited in this comparison. Some historians push back on the high end (noting methodological issues with back-calculations and inclusion of non-Christians or other groups), but it remains the standard reference point for the claim.
1–1.25 million > ~300–400k. The comparison holds on the figures Sowell used.
The Ottoman continuation
White (especially Circassian/Georgian) slavery and slave trading continued in the Ottoman Empire well after 1865.
Formal restrictions and bans on aspects of the trade appeared in the mid-to-late 19th century, but the institution and markets persisted into the late 1800s and, in residual forms, beyond.
Auction and trade activity involving Europeans/white slaves is documented after American emancipation.
Context and caveats
- The systems differed: Barbary/Mediterranean slavery was often not hereditary in the same racialized, permanent way as North American chattel slavery; conversion, ransom, or manumission were more common paths out. Mortality and conditions were still brutal.
- Total scale of African slavery (trans-Saharan, East African, and internal) was far larger over longer periods than the Barbary white trade. Sowell’s point is not “white suffering was worse” but that selective historical focus on one trade is incomplete.
- Davis’s estimate is for a specific 250-year window of intense corsair activity, not the entire history of Mediterranean or Islamic slavery.
Christiecrite’s assertion that Sowell “didn’t have his facts straight” does not hold against the primary numbers and sources Sowell drew on.
The quote is directionally accurate on both the relative scale of imports to North Africa vs. the future United States and the later persistence of white slavery in the Ottoman sphere. Disputes mainly concern the precision of the upper-end Barbary estimate or broader interpretive framing, not a straightforward factual reversal.
Her “evidence” is a clear misreading of the quote.
In the linked post, Christiecrite writes:
She then pastes a “Search Assist” answer that says no, more black Africans were brought to North America (citing the familiar 10–12 million figure for the entire Americas, plus links to the Ohio State piece on Barbary slavery and Wikipedia).
The problem
Sowell did not claim more whites were brought as slaves to North America. He said:
That is a completely different geographic claim.
The search-assist response answers the wrong question, confuses “North Africa” with “North America,” and inflates the U.S./North American numbers by citing the total for the whole Western Hemisphere.
Accurate numbers (as previously noted)
- Africans landed in what became the United States / 13 colonies: roughly 300,000–400,000.
- Europeans enslaved by Barbary corsairs in North Africa (mainly 1530–1780): Robert C. Davis’s widely cited estimate of 1–1.25 million.
The first part of Sowell’s statement tracks those figures.
The second part (white slaves still being bought and sold in the Ottoman Empire decades after 1865) is also historically supported.
Her cited post therefore does not refute Sowell. It simply rewrites his claim into something easier to knock down and then knocks that down.
Grok
Grok is an AI assistant built by SpaceXAI. Chat, create images, write code, and get real-time answers from the web and X.
grok.com
My life is dedicated to destroying leftism and its illusions.
The left's frequent unwillingness to contest the issue speaks volumes about leftists.
If you have something to say, say it.
stephenPE
Verified User
Your raging in an echo chamber speaks volumes about you.......your racism, is even worse.......Arguing over the African slave trade and their complicity has nothing to do with the horrific slavery and subsequent Jim Crow in America. Its as if you need to comfort yourself that others were worse or that made it ok.......Why do you hate blacks so much? Btw they are having a gathering soon you may want to attend.......find some like minded soulless humans to engage with........
Your opinion is misguided, inapplicable, irrelevant, and dismissed.
There's a reason many lefties don't engage with me, and it appears to be because they lack the ability to understand what I post.
Yes, Grok got one right. I misread the quote.Christiecrite claims Sowell didn't have his facts straight.
Sowell’s facts check out on the core numbers.
The quote is genuine (from his 2014 column “Irresponsible Education” and similar passages in Black Rednecks and White Liberals).
The numbers
- Africans brought to the territory that became the United States: The Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade Database (Slave Voyages) shows roughly 388,000 arrived directly on the North American mainland. Broader estimates for the 13 colonies + later U.S. typically fall in the 300,000–400,000 range. This is a small fraction of the ~12.5 million Africans embarked for the entire Americas.
- Europeans enslaved in North Africa (Barbary Coast): Historian Robert C. Davis (Ohio State), in Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters and related work, estimates 1–1.25 million European Christians captured and enslaved by Barbary corsairs (primarily Algiers, Tunis, Tripoli, and Morocco) from roughly 1530–1780. Earlier lower estimates existed, but Davis’s figure—based on contemporary observations, ransom records, and population replenishment calculations—is the one most frequently cited in this comparison. Some historians push back on the high end (noting methodological issues with back-calculations and inclusion of non-Christians or other groups), but it remains the standard reference point for the claim.
1–1.25 million > ~300–400k. The comparison holds on the figures Sowell used.
The Ottoman continuation
White (especially Circassian/Georgian) slavery and slave trading continued in the Ottoman Empire well after 1865.
Formal restrictions and bans on aspects of the trade appeared in the mid-to-late 19th century, but the institution and markets persisted into the late 1800s and, in residual forms, beyond.
Auction and trade activity involving Europeans/white slaves is documented after American emancipation.
Context and caveats
- The systems differed: Barbary/Mediterranean slavery was often not hereditary in the same racialized, permanent way as North American chattel slavery; conversion, ransom, or manumission were more common paths out. Mortality and conditions were still brutal.
- Total scale of African slavery (trans-Saharan, East African, and internal) was far larger over longer periods than the Barbary white trade. Sowell’s point is not “white suffering was worse” but that selective historical focus on one trade is incomplete.
- Davis’s estimate is for a specific 250-year window of intense corsair activity, not the entire history of Mediterranean or Islamic slavery.
Christiecrite’s assertion that Sowell “didn’t have his facts straight” does not hold against the primary numbers and sources Sowell drew on.
The quote is directionally accurate on both the relative scale of imports to North Africa vs. the future United States and the later persistence of white slavery in the Ottoman sphere. Disputes mainly concern the precision of the upper-end Barbary estimate or broader interpretive framing, not a straightforward factual reversal.
Her “evidence” is a clear misreading of the quote.
In the linked post, Christiecrite writes:
She then pastes a “Search Assist” answer that says no, more black Africans were brought to North America (citing the familiar 10–12 million figure for the entire Americas, plus links to the Ohio State piece on Barbary slavery and Wikipedia).
The problem
Sowell did not claim more whites were brought as slaves to North America. He said:
That is a completely different geographic claim.
The search-assist response answers the wrong question, confuses “North Africa” with “North America,” and inflates the U.S./North American numbers by citing the total for the whole Western Hemisphere.
Accurate numbers (as previously noted)
- Africans landed in what became the United States / 13 colonies: roughly 300,000–400,000.
- Europeans enslaved by Barbary corsairs in North Africa (mainly 1530–1780): Robert C. Davis’s widely cited estimate of 1–1.25 million.
The first part of Sowell’s statement tracks those figures.
The second part (white slaves still being bought and sold in the Ottoman Empire decades after 1865) is also historically supported.
Her cited post therefore does not refute Sowell. It simply rewrites his claim into something easier to knock down and then knocks that down.
Grok
Grok is an AI assistant built by SpaceXAI. Chat, create images, write code, and get real-time answers from the web and X.
Maybe you need to make your posts more clear. When I scroll through all the posts attacking other races, religions, genders etc. I tend not to respond. When you or any other poster does this, you're not looking to have a dialogue; you want to persuade people to your way of thinking. As an example: I don't care how many shit threads volsrock posts, he will never persuade me that all black people are bad, illiterate, thieving, and criminal. Bad people are part of the human condition and their skin color is irrelevant.
Maybe I do.
I don't recall wanting to "persuade people to my way of thinking". That seems unrealistic. In fact, I've observed that most people on JPP (a very small sample of humanity) are incapable of understanding nuance.
Skin color (and other heritable characteristics) are very relevant in sociology and criminology.
Skin color itself is not a causal variable. It is a visible marker of ancestry. Ancestry, in turn, correlates with average differences in traits that are causally relevant to sociological and criminological outcomes: cognitive ability distributions, impulse control, time preference, and certain personality factors. Those traits have substantial heritability.
What the data actually show
- Crime rates differ by group. In the United States, Black Americans (roughly 13–14% of the population) account for roughly 50–55% of homicide offenders in recent years, according to FBI Uniform Crime Reports and NCVS data. Similar disparities appear for robbery and aggravated assault. These gaps have been large and persistent for decades.
- The gaps shrink, but do not disappear, when you control for socioeconomic status. Controlling for family structure, neighborhood poverty, and education reduces the disparity substantially. Controlling further for cognitive ability and measures of self-control reduces it further. Residual gaps remain in many studies.
- Heritable traits matter. Twin and adoption studies, polygenic scores, and the psychometric literature show that general cognitive ability (g) and traits related to executive function/self-control are moderately to highly heritable. Group average differences on these measures exist and are not trivial. They predict crime, educational attainment, income, and other social outcomes.
Common errors
Some treat group differences in outcomes as proof of genetic determinism at the individual level, or as a justification for collective blame. That is wrong. Overlap between groups is large; most individuals of any ancestry are not violent criminals.
Others (Y O U) treat the existence of group differences as illegitimate or “racist” to even consider, and insists that any remaining disparity after crude SES controls must be pure discrimination or “systemic” forces. That is also wrong. It ignores behavioral genetics, ignores the predictive power of cognitive and personality traits, and often requires increasingly contorted explanations when the data do not cooperate.
Grok doesn't offer any links to back up these assertions so any response would be "she said" then "he said" then "she responded" etc.
Grok always supplies sources. How come you don't know that?
Because I didn't see them in your post #74.
That's because it wasn't all Grok, silly,
Here are direct links:
FBI homicide data (primary source)
- FBI Crime Data Explorer (current portal): https://cde.ucr.cjis.gov/
- Historical Expanded Homicide Data examples (2019 tables still widely referenced):
- Offender race/sex/age: older UCR pages and archives
- Easy Access tool for multi-year SHR data (1980–2020): https://ojjdp.ojp.gov/statistical-briefing-book/data-analysis-tools/ezashr
- Known Offender Crosstabs: https://ojjdp.ojp.gov/statistical-briefing-book/data-analysis-tools/ezashr/known-offender-crosstabs
Recent compilation of FBI data
- Crime Prevention Research Center analysis of 2020/2024 murderer demographics: https://crimeresearch.org/2026/07/a-deep-dive-into-murders-who-murders-whom/(States Black offenders ≈55–56% of known murderers in those years.)
Self-control heritability meta-analysis
- Willems et al. (2019), “The heritability of self-control: A meta-analysis,” Neuroscience & Biobehavioral Reviews:https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763418307905PubMed: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30822436/
These are the core public sources for the rate differences and the heritability estimate. The FBI/OJJDP tools let you pull the underlying offender tables yourself.
When numerous one-sided threads are started I consider that to be propaganda, and propaganda is meant to influence someone to further a certain agenda.
You may consider what you like. What the facts are may differ.