Jesus Was Not a Refugee

iolo said:
His views on the rich were roughly mine, and the early church was a socialist organisation (see Acts).
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That's not specific. Jesus taught non violent liberation theology (Sermon on the Mount) and to render under Caesar what belonged to Caesar... He said his "kingdom" was not of this earth. He also taught to be kind to the poor and the stranger as God loves all his children (even the people of Nineveh.. (see Book of Jonah)

How is that about Socialism?

The eye of the needle was a small gate that camels couldn't walk thru after the gates were closed at sundown.

This was bandit territory and camel caravans needed to be inside the city walls at night.
 
katzgar said:
bullshit, you missed the part about the money changers.
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The money changers were were converting Roman coin to shekels so that poor people could purchase animals to offer for sacrifice at the temple.. and they took a fee for converting those Roman coins. In short they were cheating poor people. Is that socialism?
 
kudzu said:
The money changers were were converting Roman coin to shekels so that poor people could purchase animals to offer for sacrifice at the temple.. and they took a fee for converting those Roman coins. In short they were cheating poor people. Is that socialism?
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they were capitalists which is what this thread is about.
 
kudzu said:
That's not specific. Jesus taught non violent liberation theology (Sermon on the Mount) and to render under Caesar what belonged to Caesar... He said his "kingdom" was not of this earth. He also taught to be kind to the poor and the stranger as God loves all his children (even the people of Nineveh.. (see Book of Jonah)

How is that about Socialism?

The eye of the needle was a small gate that camels couldn't walk thru after the gates were closed at sundown.

This was bandit territory and camel caravans needed to be inside the city walls at night.
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What exactly doesn't belong to God, then? That was a joke. That eye of the needle is an 'explanation' the rich needed and thought up, but it still doesn't work, and what about Dives and Lazarus? The early Church had things in common, not competition, and the mighty were put down from their seats, not made President.
 
iolo said:
What exactly doesn't belong to God, then? That was a joke. That eye of the needle is an 'explanation' the rich needed and thought up, but it still doesn't work, and what about Dives and Lazarus? The early Church had things in common, not competition, and the mighty were put down from their seats, not made President.
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Roman coin seems to have belonged to Caesar whereas men's souls belonged to God.

Dives and Lazarus is a teaching narrative.. Jesus isn't saying that you have to be poor to be a Christian. He's talking about priorities. There are several parables about wasting opportunities to increase wealth.

I was taught that each of us have talents.. Some make money, some teach, some bake or heal or make music.

You have never heard of the needle gate?

Here's the verse.

Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."
~Matthew 19:26-24

A small door in a larger gate is NOT unusual in that part of the world.

xisrael-nazareth-eye-of-the-needle.jpg.pagespeed.ic.PlXuY_klfL.jpg
 
Why are Pharisees carrying Occupation money bearing a graven image? If the rich inevitably go to Hell, I'd give up all I had and give to the poor myself. If you have a talent for going to Hell, bury it, fast. Who hasn't heard of the Needle Gate? It is wheeled out all the time. What was the matter with Jesus's speech that he couldn't say Gate' if that was what he meant?

Kudzu. I am not going to get into a textual competition, because you'd inevitably be better at it, and I don't read that way: I read the New Testament as a series of books, and there is no doubt about their message overall, which is NOT to rush off and compete in making money or long to be rich. I gave given up playing text games since I finally gave up on this new front in infuriating my father. What's more, elder daughter has carried of my Bible Designed to be Read as Literature, so I am disarmed! :)
 
iolo said:
Why are Pharisees carrying Occupation money bearing a graven image? If the rich inevitably go to Hell, I'd give up all I had and give to the poor myself. If you have a talent for going to Hell, bury it, fast. Who hasn't heard of the Needle Gate? It is wheeled out all the time. What was the matter with Jesus's speech that he couldn't say Gate' if that was what he meant?

Kudzu. I am not going to get into a textual competition, because you'd inevitably be better at it, and I don't read that way: I read the New Testament as a series of books, and there is no doubt about their message overall, which is NOT to rush off and compete in making money or long to be rich. I gave given up playing text games since I finally gave up on this new front in infuriating my father. What's more, elder daughter has carried of my Bible Designed to be Read as Literature, so I am disarmed! :)
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In order to pass thru the Needle Gate a camel would have to be unloaded of its CARGO and walk thru on its knees. Do you think the people of first century Palestine didn't know what Jesus meant by Eye of the Needle? He spoke symbolically ALL the time.. Look at the many, many symbolic references to harlot, servant, water, bridegooms etc.

I think Jesus was saying that some rich men would have to unload their earthy CARGO to follow Jesus, not that everyone should be poor. Look at the parable of the TALENTS.

Roman coins with the ingraved head of Caesar were the coin of the realm .. You couldn't do business .. (buy or sell) without using the mark of the beast.
 
Eye of the Needle Gate is quite easy to say, you know. My own notion is that Jesus normally meant what he said.
 
iolo said:
Eye of the Needle Gate is quite easy to say, you know. My own notion is that Jesus normally meant what he said.
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Jesus presented Himself as a Shepherd, a Sower, a Bridegroom, a Door, a Cornerstone, a Vine, Light, Bread, and Water.

He likened the kingdom of heaven to a wedding feast, a seed, a tree, a field, a net, a pearl, and yeast. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of other symbols in the Bible.
 
kudzu said:
Jesus presented Himself as a Shepherd, a Sower, a Bridegroom, a Door, a Cornerstone, a Vine, Light, Bread, and Water.

He likened the kingdom of heaven to a wedding feast, a seed, a tree, a field, a net, a pearl, and yeast. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of other symbols in the Bible.
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None of which give anyone anyone an excuse to say he meant other than is obvious, except those that are used to justify retaining wealth, class and power.
 
iolo said:
None of which give anyone anyone an excuse to say he meant other than is obvious, except those that are used to justify retaining wealth, class and power.
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The Parable of the Talents (Matthew 25:14-30; Luke 19:12 ...

Our Lord’s teaching in the parable of the talents is that God expects profit that is the product of our labors. He provides the money and the ability, but we are expected to work hard with what He has given us, for the profit of the kingdom. In our parable, money is given to us to use, to work with, not just to give back.


https://bible.org/seriespage/27-parable-talents-matthew-2514-30-luke-1912-28
 
kudzu said:
The Parable of the Talents (Matthew 25:14-30; Luke 19:12 ...

Our Lord’s teaching in the parable of the talents is that God expects profit that is the product of our labors. He provides the money and the ability, but we are expected to work hard with what He has given us, for the profit of the kingdom. In our parable, money is given to us to use, to work with, not just to give back.


https://bible.org/seriespage/27-parable-talents-matthew-2514-30-luke-1912-28
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Capitalist reading, not mine. How much did Jesus make by carpentry?
 
iolo said:
Capitalist reading, not mine. How much did Jesus make by carpentry?
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I think Jesus gave up carpentry when he began his ministry. The Jews weren't socialists.. They were tribal, but not socialists. They were merchants, traders, masons, carpenters, pottery makers, fishermen and farmers.

Note the story of the tax collector Zacchaeus.


What was Jesus doing fraternizing with sinners? Tax-collectors were evidently both rich and in a sinful trade. But Zacchaeus “stood his ground.” He gives half his belongings to the poor. If he defrauded anyone, he paid back “four times” the cost. Jesus tells him that “this day” “salvation” has come to Zacchaeus’ house. “The Son of Man came to search out and save what was lost.”

If we look at that passage, several issues seem clear. If Zacchaeus were not wealthy, he could give nothing to the poor.

He was not only just but generous; he gave back more than he needed to give. Salvation could come to a man who was rich, even to a wealthy sinner, still rich even after giving half his possessions away. The issue was not whether he was rich or not, but what he did with his riches.

Christ did not request that he give the rest of his income away to become poor. Nor did he ask him to find a better job that did not have the taint of sin. Likewise, he did not ask Zacchaeus, like the other tax-collector, Matthew, to come and follow him as an apostle.

https://theimaginativeconservative.org/2016/04/did-jesus-oppose-poverty.html
 
If Jesus wasn't challenging traditional Jewry, why did he bother? You are raising a different question. Who were socialists at that time, do you suppose? Zaccheus was a colonialist yes-man, making money by selling his people out, as do all power-people. Jesus knew what was implicit in colonial grovelling, but knew he wasn't socialist material and left him to it.
 
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kudzu said:
In order to pass thru the Needle Gate a camel would have to be unloaded of its CARGO and walk thru on its knees. Do you think the people of first century Palestine didn't know what Jesus meant by Eye of the Needle? He spoke symbolically ALL the time.. Look at the many, many symbolic references to harlot, servant, water, bridegooms etc.

I think Jesus was saying that some rich men would have to unload their earthy CARGO to follow Jesus, not that everyone should be poor. Look at the parable of the TALENTS.

Roman coins with the ingraved head of Caesar were the coin of the realm .. You couldn't do business .. (buy or sell) without using the mark of the beast.
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Except that Jesus didn't say "eye of the needle". He said "eye of a needle". In any event, the meaning is the same: the rich should not expect to go to heaven.

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rjhenn said:
Except that Jesus didn't say "eye of the needle". He said "eye of a needle". In any event, the meaning is the same: the rich should not expect to go to heaven.

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Well, that's what they teach poor congregations..
 
iolo said:
None of which give anyone anyone an excuse to say he meant other than is obvious, except those that are used to justify retaining wealth, class and power.
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why do atheists always ignore the rest of the passage?....
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
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so did Jesus mean what he said?.......
 
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