Opposing Putin Is Like Pleading For Poison

Cypress said:
He is ex KGB and he is a corrupt autocrat. Between me, relatives" friends we know thousands of people in Russia, and to my knowledge no one is disappearing

I think it is important to be clear about this: Russia today does not resemble the Russia of Stalin, Brezhnev, or even of the relatively benign Krushev.

Putin has gamed the system through cynical constitutional reform, coopting the institutions of governmen, law, courts. They have complete structural control over the press, elections" courts, federal agencies. It is quite easy for Putin to deny access to the election process and press to viable opposition groups.

That kind of structural control is more effective and less risky than killing people.

There need to assassinate or dissapear people is pretty minimal, especially compared to Soviet standards. It undoubtedly happens sometimes, but only after a careful risk benefit is calculated.

If the Kremlin was directly involved in this poisoning, they must have made a calculation about the risk and benefit of killing a guy who was already effectively being shut out of the Democratic process. Another possibility is this Nevlny guy was just so much of pest, that elements outside the Russian government _but who benefit from an association with the Putin regime) tried to off this guy - criminal underworld, corrupt oligarchs, etc
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See, you can make cogent posts lol.

Exactly, we don’t even know if Putin was behind it. As you pointed out, Russia is a complicated place.

And if we aren’t sure Putin was behind it—we do nothing, until we know for sure.
 
anatta said:
The warmonger McCain is dead,
but then there is Rubio and a host of neocon warhawks who would war at the drop of a hat
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Well, I was referring more to the state of the electorate. We have too many voters that are easily manipulated to the point they can be persuaded that ‘Russia stole the election’ when it’s virtually impossible. Even Mullet wouldn’t go near that claim but the media established the narrative so now any number of people believe it.

And they vote.
 
Darth Omar said:
Well, I was referring more to the state of the electorate. We have too many voters that are easily manipulated to the point they can be persuaded that ‘Russia stole the election’ when it’s virtually impossible. Even Mullet wouldn’t go near that claim but the media established the narrative so now any number of people believe it.

And they vote.
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Dems carry that meme because it's convenient. Im not sure if they actually believe it
although Hillary has called virtually everyone a Russian Asset at one time or the other.

Most voters dont discuss politics like we do -going on Twitter is probably making them even dumber
as usual it comes down to da media carrying Dem water as well
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello Dutch Uncle,

Same reason Trump was able to gain power. Propaganda.
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If you really believe that then you believe people are as easy to manipulate as sheep. They aren't sheep. Propaganda, commercials and social media do influence the decisions of people, but either we trust them to make their own decisions or we accept the Elites treating citizens as pets.

Trump won for a lot of different reasons, not just because the Russians ran some bots on FaceBook. :)

The good news for Democrats is that they have a much more likeable candidate....too bad he's so old.
 
Darth Omar said:
See, you can make cogent posts lol.

Exactly, we don’t even know if Putin was behind it. As you pointed out, Russia is a complicated place.

And if we aren’t sure Putin was behind it—we do nothing, until we know for sure.
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Whether is is done with direct government involvement, or by criminal organizations outside the government, it is being done for the benefit of the criminal oligarchy Putin is responsible for protecting and enriching.

The tentacles of Putin's oligarchy reach through government, business, the criminal underworld, even into the Russian Orthodox church.

Saying that Putin didn't order the hit does not diminish the fact he is the face of a criminal empire that works relentlessly to avoid accountability by suppressing opposition groups, liberal reformers, democratic activists.
 
anatta said:
the reports are worthless if the underlying data used for assessments are false = "garbage in - garbage out"
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A true statement. Too bad for you and your daddy Putin the DNI report is dead-on balls accurate.
 
Compared to the Stalinist era, our government now is a pussy cat with soft paws

Lyudmila Ulitskaya: why I'm not afraid of Vladimir Putin

Lyudmila Ulitskaya does not like to draw attention to herself. In person, she is unassuming and softly spoken, a 68-year-old grandmother with grey cropped hair and small, elegant hands. She does not consider herself exceptional. But this modest, self-effacing individual is one of Russia's foremost contemporary novelists and a leading advocate for freedom of expression. She started writing almost by accident after she was sacked from her job as a geneticist in the 1960s and accused of dissident activity by the former Soviet authorities. "I thought, quite wrongly, that scientists were freer [than artists]," she has written in the past. "Of course, all these illusions were shattered over time."

"I'm not afraid," Ulitskaya insists, speaking through a translator. "Compared to the Stalinist era, our government now is a pussycat with soft paws … Having said that, I believe that (Russian liberal democratic reformer) Khodorkovsky is in jail because the whole society was so scared that no one stood up for his defence. There were threats: the court was afraid, the witnesses, the judge, because no one had the courage to speak up and that saddens me. That loss of dignity frustrates me because our society had only just started overcoming its fear after so many years of oppressive rule. The Russian people have once again started to be gripped by fear."

"In Russia, there is a drastic gap between rich and poor, to the extent that I feel the country is on the brink of civil war. The salary of a civil servant can be hundreds of thousands less than that of a businessman. It causes huge irritation, especially when people show off their wealth, with all their furs and bling. I hope that the next generation will be educated more to spend their money wisely and charitably. And, for me, the first person to realise he should act like this was Khodorkovsky."
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/apr/17/lyudmila-ulitskaya-dissident-putin-interview
 
Dutch Uncle said:
It is when someone habitually defends Russia by doing it.

Anyone who is known to give laundry lists about where the US has fucked up, but doesn't do it in context, thereby protecting their own or desired nation, is engaging in bias. Look at the RWNJs on this forum who give a laundry list negatives about minorities but never list context. Do you think they are biased for doing so? Why? Why not?
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I do not know anyone who habitually defends Vladimir Putin except for the Deplorables on this forum.

I have been more open, articulate, and personal about the crimes of Soviet communists than anyone else in the history of this board.
>> https://www.justplainpolitics.com/s...chlag-forced-labor-camp&p=3295317#post3295317
https://www.justplainpolitics.com/s...chlag-forced-labor-camp&p=3502305#post3502305
 
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Cypress said:
Whether is is done with direct government involvement, or by criminal organizations outside the government, it is being done for the benefit of the criminal oligarchy Putin is responsible for protecting and enriching.

The tentacles of Putin's oligarchy reach through government, business, the criminal underworld, even into the Russian Orthodox church.

Saying that Putin didn't order the hit does not diminish the fact he is the face of a criminal empire that works relentlessly to avoid accountability by suppressing opposition groups, liberal reformers, democratic activists.
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Putin sucks.

But we’re also stuck with him. But let’s take a more panoramic view: do we want to drive Putin and Russia into China’s sphere of influence?

Clearly, no. That would be cutting our nose off to spite our face. China is more of a *direct threat* than Russia is, both economically and militarily. So, whatever we do with Russia, we do it with an eye towards China.

That’s why it would be absolutely bone headed, to do anything of any consequence over this guy being poisoned—when we aren’t even sure of all the facts.

In fact, Trump is right to not even say anything about it.
 
Darth Omar said:
Putin sucks.

But we’re also stuck with him. But let’s take a more panoramic view: do we want to drive Putin and Russia into China’s sphere of influence?

Clearly, no. That would be cutting our nose off to spite our face. China is more of a *direct threat* than Russia is, both economically and militarily. So, whatever we do with Russia, we do it with an eye towards China.

That’s why it would be absolutely bone headed, to do anything of any consequence over this guy being poisoned—when we aren’t even sure of all the facts.

In fact, Trump is right to not even say anything about it.
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Whining about Putin doesn't change Putin .He doesn't care what we say.

sanctions against Russian oligarchs are another matter -Russia has been driven into Xi's arms because of sanctions.
As little back in time as 2008 Obama was trying to do his "Russian reset' -what changed?

Everything we did to Putin directly or indirectly since then ( including Trump)has cemented the Sino-Russia military complex

Vostok 2018: Russia lets the war games with China begin
https://www.dw.com/en/vostok-2018-russia-lets-the-war-games-with-china-begin/a-45435748

 
Micawber said:
...and the corollary bashing on US national security intelligence services. All of them.
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no. just the liars. Like the FBI leadership under Obama, and the political operators like Brennan..

Wray is sorta/kina cleaning house - it still needs to be disinfected, but smelling less rotten
 
Micawber said:
...and the corollary bashing on US national security intelligence services. All of them.
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Ok, let’s turn this thing around.

Why don’t you convince us you’re not a China apologist by opening some threads on China? I wish I had a nickel for every thread opened on Russia by lefties since the election. Before it, they didn’t give a shit about Putin and mocked Romney for calling Russia a threat in 2012

When it comes to China, nothing but crickets *even after* they sent us the China virus.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Agreed. In a world of limited resources and economies based on growth, there will always be competition. Hostility toward opponents is expected. Some will back off in the competition and some will push it as far they can.

For the most part, Americans are doing the job of our global opponents for them by dividing other Americans and seeking to impose authority over them.
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It's very likely in a few months, Trump will refuse to step down, as USA President.

That could cause a Civil War, by his backers & anti-Trump peoples too.

If so China will back factions of Biden, Russia factions of Trump.



Trump & the Jewish media, are dividing America.

One side is likely linked to Russia, and the other to China.

Trump is likely a Putin puppet, absolutely, that's why he constantly oafishly divides us.

The Jewish media, on the other hand, hates White Christians, it's so obvious, and they back China, to support destruction of White Christians.

Yes, Jewish Soros & Feinstein & some others have been linked to China too.
 
Cypress said:
The invasions of Panama and Iraq happened after the cold war, when Russia was no viable threat to us, and those invasions had no valid moral or national security dimension.

We supported many horrendous authoritarian rightwing over the years, including to the current day.

We have to be able to legitimately explain these actions if we wish to have the moral authority to lecture others. Just my two cents.

If the question is whether the current regime in Russia is corrupt and ruthlessly pursues its self interest, the answer is indubitably yes.
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Right, the USA in the past 20 years, has no moral high groun over Russia, or even China.
 
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