America Retreating from Religion

Jack said:
Cy: "The only thing I know about Thomas Moore is Utopia, which might be the world's first communist manifesto."
Jack: OK. You must know something about him.

Cy: "With regard to the intellectual history of western civilization, it is simply a matter of historical fact that natural philosophy, science, skeptical inquiry was sponsored and promoted by the church from late antiquity through the early modern period" largely as a result of the recovery of Greek thought via Italy and Islamic Al Andalus."
Jack: By 'recovery', you mean after the Church burned all the Books that didn't conform to Church doctrine ... yes, I would agree with that. Hey, what's a 1,000 years.

Cy: "Pagan thought"
Jack: They had their Gods back then. They had their 'Religions'. But Thank You for pointing out why the Ancient Manuscripts were destroyed by the Christians, because they were 'Pagan Thoughts'.
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Right, now were covering old ground.

I was the one who already wrote a post about the cultural crimes of the Catholic church, aka destruction of Mayan and Aztec books and cultural artifacts, and the burning of Arian and Nestorian Christian books becasuse they were deemed heretical. The loss of human cultural history because of the zealous actions of the Catholic Church is a dark stain which we condemn in hindsight.

The issue I was addressing was the church's role in the scholarly intellectual development and intellectual history of western civilization.

Ever since the early to high middle ages, the Church and its patrons were generally keen to recover scholarly texts from Plato, Aristotle, Seneca, Boethius, Averroes and the Muslim scholars of Al Andalus. We can also recogniz the fact that the establishment of universities and higher education is directly attributable to Christianity.
 
Cypress said:
Right, now were covering old ground.

I was the one who already wrote a post about the cultural crimes of the Catholic church, aka destruction of Mayan and Aztec books and cultural artifacts, and the burning of Arian and Nestorian Christian books becasuse they were deemed heretical. The loss of human cultural history because of the zealous actions of the Catholic Church is a dark stain which we condemn in hindsight.

The issue I was addressing was the church's role in the scholarly intellectual development and intellectual history of western civilization.

Ever since the early to high middle ages, the Church and its patrons were generally keen to recover scholarly texts from Plato, Aristotle, Seneca, Boethius, Averroes and the Muslim scholars of Al Andalus. We can also recogniz the fact that the establishment of universities and higher education is directly attributable to Christianity.
Click to expand...

Cy: "I was the one who already wrote a post about the cultural crimes of the Catholic church, aka destruction of Mayan and Aztec books and cultural artifacts, and the burning of Arian and Nestorian Christian books becasuse they were deemed heretical. The loss of human cultural history because of the zealous actions of the Catholic Church is a dark stain which we condemn in hindsight."

Jack: Great. We agree the Christian Church destroyed books that were 'heretical'. So in your view, after a 1,000 years, "the Church and its patrons were generally keen to recover scholarly texts from Plato, Aristotle, ...". I'm not too impressed with AFTER burning the Books of Antiquity, the Church was anxious to RECOVER the Books they already burned.


And the Church loved God's Creation:

"THE VATICAN'S DICKLESS STATUES"
https://luckytrip.co.uk/post/661
 
Might it not save time and argument to admit that American 'religion' has nothing to do with it's nominal origins in Christianity and is all about irrational conformity with a not-very-attractive social reality.
 
Jack said:
Cy: "I was the one who already wrote a post about the cultural crimes of the Catholic church, aka destruction of Mayan and Aztec books and cultural artifacts, and the burning of Arian and Nestorian Christian books becasuse they were deemed heretical. The loss of human cultural history because of the zealous actions of the Catholic Church is a dark stain which we condemn in hindsight."

Jack: Great. We agree the Christian Church destroyed books that were 'heretical'. So in your view, after a 1,000 years, "the Church and its patrons were generally keen to recover scholarly texts from Plato, Aristotle, ...". I'm not too impressed with AFTER burning the Books of Antiquity, the Church was anxious to RECOVER the Books they already burned.


And the Church loved God's Creation:

"THE VATICAN'S DICKLESS STATUES"
https://luckytrip.co.uk/post/661
Click to expand...

Protestants will always be the biggest butcher's of Europe.

British Anglicans killed 60 - 85 million Indian Hindus by starvation.

Lutheran dominated Germany killed about 40 - 50 million in WW2.
 
katzgar said:
under catholic oppression. The original colonies were all about escaping catholic persecution
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But, that brings up a good point.

A disproportionate amount of Spanish Conquistadors in the New World were probably Crypto Jews & Crypto Moor Muslims.

We know a lot of Mexicans in New Mexico have a lot of Jewish genes via the Cohanim marker.
 
Jack said:
Cy: "I was the one who already wrote a post about the cultural crimes of the Catholic church, aka destruction of Mayan and Aztec books and cultural artifacts, and the burning of Arian and Nestorian Christian books becasuse they were deemed heretical. The loss of human cultural history because of the zealous actions of the Catholic Church is a dark stain which we condemn in hindsight."

Jack: Great. We agree the Christian Church destroyed books that were 'heretical'. So in your view, after a 1,000 years, "the Church and its patrons were generally keen to recover scholarly texts from Plato, Aristotle, ...". I'm not too impressed with AFTER burning the Books of Antiquity, the Church was anxious to RECOVER the Books they already burned.


And the Church loved God's Creation:

"THE VATICAN'S DICKLESS STATUES"
https://luckytrip.co.uk/post/661
Click to expand...

So in your opinion, Christianity is pure evil and it's existence has never provided any benefit to western civilization.

In my opinion, the church, like all large institutions, is responsible for cultural crimes, crimes against humanity, corruption. On the flipside, Christianity played profound and foundational roles in western civilization.

You also would not even recognize Western civilization without the profound influence of the church, including it's patronage of science, natural philosophy, scholarly inquiry, art, universities and higher education. Judeo-Christian moral, social, and ethical values have so inculcated western thought, that you also absorbed them by osmosis and practice them without even thinking about it.
 
Cypress said:
So in your opinion, Christianity is pure evil and it's existence has never provided any benefit to western civilization.

In my opinion, the church, like all large institutions, is responsible for cultural crimes, crimes against humanity, corruption. On the flipside, Christianity played profound and foundational roles in western civilization.

You also would not even recognize Western civilization without the profound influence of the church, including it's patronage of science, natural philosophy, scholarly inquiry, art, universities and higher education. Judeo-Christian moral, social, and ethical values have so inculcated western thought, that you also absorbed them by osmosis and practice them without even thinking about it.
Click to expand...

No. I see 'religion' as being a closed loop of thought. You have the accepted 'God's Word', and then any deviation from that is 'heretical'. Free Thinkers are NOT encouraged. They are usually killed.

Yes, I agree that 'Christianity' is the religion of Western Civilization. Whether we like it or not. Every region on the Planet has a dominating 'religion' that has influenced their development.

'Western Civilization' has two opposing historical concepts, the 'Free Thinkers' that Greece represents, and the 'Closed Thinkers' that Religion represents. I support the Free Thinkers. Institutions that KILL Free Thinkers will never be promoted by me. I will never see them as 'good' or 'beneficial'.

Zoroaster: "Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds".
"Some scholars say that tenets of Zoroastrianism helped to shape the major Abrahamic religions—including Judaism, Christianity and Islam—through the influence of the Persian Empire.
Zoroastrian concepts, including the idea of a single god, heaven, hell and a day of judgment, may have been first introduced to the Jewish community of Babylonia, where people from the Kingdom of Judea had been living in captivity for decades."
https://www.history.com/topics/religion/zoroastrianism
 
Cypress said:
No one really knows, but a conventional hypothesis is the big bang resulted from quantuum fluctuations.

It is well established in quantum mechanics that the creation of matter can be uncaused— it can spring from nothing.

It is not implausible to speculate that the singularity at the origin of the universe did not necessarily have to have a cause; that we are required to assume something had to exist before the singularity. Quantuum foam could be a plausible mechanism for the origin of the universe.

Wrapping up: No one knows how the universe originated. Seems to me that quantum fluctuations are just as plausible as the literal account in the book of Genesis. It is ultimately a question of metaphysics, not physics. I personally think we do not even yet understand the physics of how the universe originated and maybe we never will. It may always be the realm of conjecture.

https://www.justplainpolitics.com/s...-Jesus-and-Christianity&p=3977907#post3977907
https://www.justplainpolitics.com/s...-Jesus-and-Christianity&p=3978106#post3978106
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Matter is made up of tiny particles called atoms and molecules.

What are the parts of an atom? Most atoms have three different subatomic particles inside them: protons, neutrons, and electrons. The protons and neutrons are packed together into the center of the atom (which is called the nucleus) and the electrons, which are very much smaller, whizz around the outside.

That whizzing around cause vibration. Vibration is sound, IE God spoke!
 
Wolverine said:
Matter is made up of tiny particles called atoms and molecules.

What are the parts of an atom? Most atoms have three different subatomic particles inside them: protons, neutrons, and electrons. The protons and neutrons are packed together into the center of the atom (which is called the nucleus) and the electrons, which are very much smaller, whizz around the outside.

That whizzing around cause vibration. Vibration is sound, IE God spoke!
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I accept your tacit concession that the chain of questioning you attempted neither discredited science, nor pointed to proof of a sentient, supernatural omniscient being

Sidebar: Your atomic model is inadequate. The elementary particles constituting atoms are quarks, bosons, and leptons.

The only nexus with God is purported by some to be the Higgs Boson, aka the God particle.
 
Jack said:
No. I see 'religion' as being a closed loop of thought. You have the accepted 'God's Word', and then any deviation from that is 'heretical'. Free Thinkers are NOT encouraged. They are usually killed.

Yes, I agree that 'Christianity' is the religion of Western Civilization. Whether we like it or not. Every region on the Planet has a dominating 'religion' that has influenced their development.

'Western Civilization' has two opposing historical concepts, the 'Free Thinkers' that Greece represents, and the 'Closed Thinkers' that Religion represents. I support the Free Thinkers. Institutions that KILL Free Thinkers will never be promoted by me. I will never see them as 'good' or 'beneficial'.

Zoroaster: "Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds".
"Some scholars say that tenets of Zoroastrianism helped to shape the major Abrahamic religions—including Judaism, Christianity and Islam—through the influence of the Persian Empire.
Zoroastrian concepts, including the idea of a single god, heaven, hell and a day of judgment, may have been first introduced to the Jewish community of Babylonia, where people from the Kingdom of Judea had been living in captivity for decades."
https://www.history.com/topics/religion/zoroastrianism
Click to expand...

Good work.
 
Cypress said:
Good work.
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Trying to be objective here.
I know many, especially many here at JPP, view Evangelicals as the Highest Form of Western Civilization ... with Trump as their Spiritual Leader.
And with me forming a different opinion, I risk my life even muttering some opposition.


:nolovejesus: :(
 
Jack said:
No. I see 'religion' as being a closed loop of thought. You have the accepted 'God's Word', and then any deviation from that is 'heretical'. Free Thinkers are NOT encouraged. They are usually killed.

Yes, I agree that 'Christianity' is the religion of Western Civilization. Whether we like it or not. Every region on the Planet has a dominating 'religion' that has influenced their development.

'Western Civilization' has two opposing historical concepts, the 'Free Thinkers' that Greece represents, and the 'Closed Thinkers' that Religion represents. I support the Free Thinkers. Institutions that KILL Free Thinkers will never be promoted by me. I will never see them as 'good' or 'beneficial'.

Zoroaster: "Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds".
"Some scholars say that tenets of Zoroastrianism helped to shape the major Abrahamic religions—including Judaism, Christianity and Islam—through the influence of the Persian Empire.
Zoroastrian concepts, including the idea of a single god, heaven, hell and a day of judgment, may have been first introduced to the Jewish community of Babylonia, where people from the Kingdom of Judea had been living in captivity for decades."
https://www.history.com/topics/religion/zoroastrianism
Click to expand...

Atheist Communists don't have a good track of free thought, either.
 
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