60% of Americans did not go to college.

cawacko said:
It's funny to me you're calling people 'right wingnuts' because they may believe there's not one right way for a person to move forward in life. Not everybody has to go to college.
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More access to college does not mean everyone has to go to college. It means everyone has greater freedom to decide whether they want to go to college. Less access to college means less choice.

cawacko said:
The internet is a game changer.
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20 years ago, I would agree, today not so much. We all assumed that everyone would be taking courses online by now... And they are... OK bad example. Starting over, we all assumed people would be taking all there courses online a year and a half ago, before the pandemic, and they were not. It turns out that online education falls short. Maybe with what we have learned in the pandemic, it will no longer fall short, but quite possibly it will.

But there is an even more unsolvable problem, how do you create the random connections of college online. Microsoft Basic came from a random run-in at the Harvard dining hall. Three people with knowledge of the subject just happened to be sitting at seats close enough to overhear each other. That might not be able to happen online.
 
cawacko said:
Now the person who doesn't go to college doesn't get the 'college experience' or the connections and networking that going to a University does. But if we're talking about access to learning it's available.
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The interaction with the other students is part of the learning. The Greeks would have argued it was the most important

The Greeks first created the Western Liberal educational system, where they taught the liberal arts. Before conservatives get upset, liberal here means "free" as opposed to "slave". The opposite of the liberal arts (things a free person needs to know) would be the servile arts(studies for slaves).

The Greeks had all sorts of government systems that their free people participated in, republics, democracies, oligarchies, theocracies, constitutional monarchies, etc. But all these systems were political in some way. Debate was the most important skill that a free person could have, so that was the center of their education.

To train in debate, students need to interact with each other. There needs to be diversity of views and backgrounds, so literally the quota system began at the same time as the Western educational system. This diversity and debate created an ever evolving system that has made it the envy of the world, along being a huge headache for those that govern.

The Middle Eastern system did not use quotas. It strove to pick the best students, without any thought to diversity. That meant it kept picking the same type of students, as old teachers picked students like themselves. Their system does not evolve, and that becomes a problem over time.
 
Walt said:
More access to college does not mean everyone has to go to college. It means everyone has greater freedom to decide whether they want to go to college. Less access to college means less choice.



20 years ago, I would agree, today not so much. We all assumed that everyone would be taking courses online by now... And they are... OK bad example. Starting over, we all assumed people would be taking all there courses online a year and a half ago, before the pandemic, and they were not. It turns out that online education falls short. Maybe with what we have learned in the pandemic, it will no longer fall short, but quite possibly it will.

But there is an even more unsolvable problem, how do you create the random connections of college online. Microsoft Basic came from a random run-in at the Harvard dining hall. Three people with knowledge of the subject just happened to be sitting at seats close enough to overhear each other. That might not be able to happen online.
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My post was (attempting to) address what you wrote at the end. The access to learning is available in many places online. You go to college for the experience, relationships, the networking etc.

All things being equal I think people should go to college. However, not everyone is cut out for it for different reasons. And it doesn't make them bad people nor does it mean they won't live happy, successful and fulfilling lives.
 
cawacko said:
All things being equal I think people should go to college.
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You are taking a step beyond what I would say. I am saying (almost) everyone should have college available to them. It should be much the same as high school is. There are some people who are too limited to go to high school, but lack of money is almost never an issue in going to high school.

Whether people chose to go to college or not is not the issue. They make whatever decision they want for themselves.

That does mean taxing everyone to support people who will make more than average amounts of money, which rubs people the wrong way sometimes.
 
Walt said:
The interaction with the other students is part of the learning. The Greeks would have argued it was the most important

The Greeks first created the Western Liberal educational system, where they taught the liberal arts. Before conservatives get upset, liberal here means "free" as opposed to "slave". The opposite of the liberal arts (things a free person needs to know) would be the servile arts(studies for slaves).

The Greeks had all sorts of government systems that their free people participated in, republics, democracies, oligarchies, theocracies, constitutional monarchies, etc. But all these systems were political in some way. Debate was the most important skill that a free person could have, so that was the center of their education.

To train in debate, students need to interact with each other. There needs to be diversity of views and backgrounds, so literally the quota system began at the same time as the Western educational system. This diversity and debate created an ever evolving system that has made it the envy of the world, along being a huge headache for those that govern.

The Middle Eastern system did not use quotas. It strove to pick the best students, without any thought to diversity. That meant it kept picking the same type of students, as old teachers picked students like themselves. Their system does not evolve, and that becomes a problem over time.
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There's an element of irony in what you write because there seems to be a slight chill on free speech and debate at some of our top Universities today. However that's a different discussion.

I'm all in on college. I'm a proud Trojan. (According to U.S. News & World Report we're #25 ranked in the country) I saw first hand why kids try so hard, and parents do everything they can, to get their kids into top schools. The education was excellent but it's really about the experience, relationships and networking. I'll call 'SC alum today who I've never met and introduce myself as a fellow Trojan and it opens doors. That's why costs keep going up and people are willing to pay it (although there will be a breaking point).

But that still doesn't mean it's for everyone. We all take our own paths in life and that's not a bad thing.
 
Walt said:
An excellent point.
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It's a strawman. No one is arguing their doctor who is going to perform heart surgery should do so after watching an internet video. But there are numerous jobs where the skills can be learned without spending ten of thousands of dollars on a degree.
 
Walt said:
Sanders has some good ideas, which is why Republicans hate him so much.

Sanders just became the chair of the Senate Budget committee, so we might see some of these good ideas actually be implemented.
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Decades ago, when I first went to college, everyone got a Pell Grant, which could be several thousand dollars. Now, those grants are not so generous.

And states cut funding to their state universities.

Right wingers like blaming students for taking out loans, but they are force to when other funding dried up.
 
Walt said:
Sanders has some good ideas, which is why Republicans hate him so much.

Sanders just became the chair of the Senate Budget committee, so we might see some of these good ideas actually be implemented.
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There are a number of Democrats who aren't Bernie lovers themselves. Not everything is black and white.
 
Originally Posted by cawacko
.A college degree is a virtue signal


Yes, and it's a woke thing too, right? :palm: And its socialism. And a bunch of other cliches

.
 
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