Salon magazine says Israel committing war crimes in latest round of fighting.

moon said:
The First and Second Intifadas were both started by Izrael and the Izraelis started this recent conflagration. There are several threads here which chronicle the events leading up to the Hamas use of rockets. Maybe you think that Izraeli murder of Palestinians, using stun grenades, rubber bullets and sewage sprays against the Al Aqsa mosque and people in their own homes doesn't count. Maybe you think that dragging women out of their houses by their hair and giving their homes to Jews isn't important nor provocative. Remember, these war crimes took place in Palestine. Hamas was elected by a landslide in 2006.



That's not entirely correct. If the Security Council fails to act against a major emergency then it can be overridden by a General Assembly vote.


No, we don't. There is nothing so important, in this age of nuclear weaponry, as peace and respect for the UN.
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I didn't say Israeli aggression "doesn't count". Don't be obtuse and desperate.

I participated in lots of mock UN meetings. I was that kind of student. I would love for the UN to matter, but you know as well as I do that the UN is a fraction as relevant as it was even 5 or 10 years ago. I hope for that to be corrected, but today, in the US, we have psychopaths who think COVID is a Democratic hoax, children who haven't been inside a school for more than a year, people who want to work but can't find employment, law enforcement personnel who constantly execute citizens in public without cause and without consequences, people who think that their uninformed opinions have some relationship to the scientific method, and violent racists who haven't shown their teeth so proudly since the 1960s. I could go on for pages.

So pardon me for repeatedly asserting that the Israelis and Palestinians are in the same boat, contributed to their own problems, and are completely beyond the reach of any of us to help. They will never have peace before you and I die. It's a fool's errand and not very important to my existence as an American and Korean citizen. Blame the violence on anyone you want. They definitely don't care. We all have more important things to worry about, in my opinion.
 
moon said:
I didn't say that you did.




Would you care to withdraw that ?
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I would hope for a less reactionary response from you.

"Maybe you think that Izraeli murder of Palestinians, using stun grenades, rubber bullets and sewage sprays against the Al Aqsa mosque and people in their own homes doesn't count."

Those are your words. ^^

"I didn't say Israeli aggression 'doesn't count'."

Those are my words. ^^

I will not withdraw anything. You got sidetracked by a criticism and completely neglected the entire "meat" of the post.
 
moon said:
Drummie123, you are so stuffed full of hasbara falsehoods that I don't know where to start. It's just a catalogue of historical errors.

Tell you what- you introduce your misconceptions one at a time and I'll endeavor to put you straight.

First up, your ' Jews have an unbroken connection to Palestine ' False.



We're talking irrefutable recorded history here not wishful-thinking biblical propaganda.
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The Jewish people base their claim to the land of Israel on at least four premises: 1) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham; 2) the Jewish people settled and developed the land; 3) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people and 4) the territory was captured in defensive wars.
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When Jews began to immigrate to Palestine in large numbers in 1882, fewer than 250,000 Arabs lived there, and the majority of them had arrived in recent decades. Palestine was never an exclusively Arab country, although Arabic gradually became the language of most the population after the Muslim invasions of the seventh century. No independent Arab or Palestinian state ever existed in Palestine. When the distinguished Arab-American historian, Princeton University Prof. Philip Hitti, testified against partition before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, he said: "There is no such thing as 'Palestine' in history, absolutely not." In fact, Palestine is never explicitly mentioned in the Koran, rather it is called "the holy land" (al-Arad al-Muqaddash).

Prior to partition, Palestinian Arabs did not view themselves as having a separate identity. When the First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations met in Jerusalem in February 1919 to choose Palestinian representatives for the Paris Peace Conference, the following resolution was adopted:

We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds.

In 1937, a local Arab leader, Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, told the Peel Commission, which ultimately suggested the partition of Palestine: "There is no such country [as Palestine]! 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria."

The representative of the Arab Higher Committee to the United Nations submitted a statement to the General Assembly in May 1947 that said "Palestine was part of the Province of Syria" and that, "politically, the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a separate political entity." A few years later, Ahmed Shuqeiri, later the chairman of the PLO, told the Security Council: "It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."

Palestinian Arab nationalism is largely a post-World War I phenomenon that did not become a significant political movement until after the 1967 Six-Day War and Israel's capture of the West Bank.

Israel's international "birth certificate" was validated by the promise of the Bible; uninterrupted Jewish settlement from the time of Joshua onward; the Balfour Declaration of 1917; the League of Nations Mandate, which incorporated the Balfour Declaration; the United Nations partition resolution of 1947; Israel's admission to the UN in 1949; the recognition of Israel by most other states; and, most of all, the society created by Israel's people in decades of thriving, dynamic national existence.
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https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-claim-to-the-land-of-israel
 
In 1920 when the League of Nations created the Palestinian state, it had a population of 700,000, of which about 76,000 were Jews. Almost all of the latter had immigrated in the previous 70 years. In 1850 only 4% of the population had been Jewish. In 1799, Napoleon Bonaparte found only 3,000 Jews. There had been hardly any Jews in Palestine since about 1100 AD.

So not only was there a Palestine, full of hundreds of thousands of people, over millennia, but there was a very long period of near-absence on the part of Jews. This absence was not because of a forcible expulsion. Rather, Jews in Palestine had converted to Christianity, and then many of those converted to Islam.

http://www.juancole.com/2014/04/pict...palestine.html


Indigenous Jews and Arabs are, of course, from the same stock. The fact that they diverged into differing ethnic, cultural and religious Semitic tribes is unfortunate. Religion is as bad as it is comforting.
 
moon said:
Drummie123, you are so stuffed full of hasbara falsehoods that I don't know where to start. It's just a catalogue of historical errors.

Tell you what- you introduce your misconceptions one at a time and I'll endeavor to put you straight.

First up, your ' Jews have an unbroken connection to Palestine ' False.



We're talking irrefutable recorded history here not wishful-thinking biblical propaganda.
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The same wishful-thinking can be said for the Palestinian's Koranic assertions, no?
 
moon said:
In 1920 when the League of Nations created the Palestinian state, it had a population of 700,000, of which about 76,000 were Jews. Almost all of the latter had immigrated in the previous 70 years. In 1850 only 4% of the population had been Jewish. In 1799, Napoleon Bonaparte found only 3,000 Jews. There had been hardly any Jews in Palestine since about 1100 AD.

So not only was there a Palestine, full of hundreds of thousands of people, over millennia, but there was a very long period of near-absence on the part of Jews. This absence was not because of a forcible expulsion. Rather, Jews in Palestine had converted to Christianity, and then many of those converted to Islam.

http://www.juancole.com/2014/04/pict...palestine.html


Indigenous Jews and Arabs are, of course, from the same stock. The fact that they diverged into differing ethnic, cultural and religious Semitic tribes is unfortunate. Religion is as bad as it is comforting.
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You're wrong. The British were given control of the region as "Trans-Jordan" under the League of Nations mandate in 1920. There was no state of Palestine or Israel for that matter at the time and neither was created out of that. Today you see apologists and vested interests making all sorts of claims that this region should be Israel, Palestine, split differently, and variations on that.

Let me repeat this. The British were given control of the region and there WAS NO STATE OF PALESTINE OR ISRAEL created out of the mandate. That came with the Balfour declaration in 1917 -18 and the British hadn't decided by 1920 how the region would be divided up into states so there was just the Trans-Jordan mandate. All there was at that time were people's who called themselves Palestinians and Jews.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
You're wrong. The British were given control of the region as "Trans-Jordan" under the League of Nations mandate in 1920. There was no state of Palestine or Israel for that matter at the time and neither was created out of that. Today you see apologists and vested interests making all sorts of claims that this region should be Israel, Palestine, split differently, and variations on that.

Let me repeat this. The British were given control of the region and there WAS NO STATE OF PALESTINE OR ISRAEL created out of the mandate. That came with the Balfour declaration in 1917 -18 and the British hadn't decided by 1920 how the region would be divided up into states so there was just the Trans-Jordan mandate. All there was at that time were people's who called themselves Palestinians and Jews.
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No, I'm not wrong. You are attempting to diminish the stature of Mandated Palestine simply because its indigenous inhabitants were in no position to exercise their sovereignty - but their sovereignty was held in trust by the Mandate.
Of course, there was no legal division until UNGAR 181, the British abrogating their responsibility for their own Balfour Declaration clusterfuck.

VIII. Palestine and the League of Nations
The international sanction for Great Britain to implement the Balfour Declaration's policy in Palestine had formally derived from the League of Nations, which conferred the legal title, and in whose name the Mandatory Power had governed. The question of where the ultimate sovereignty of a Mandated Territory lay has been the subject of varying interpretations, which need not be examined in this study. Several authorities, basing their views on the wording of Article 22 of the Covenant, and stressing that the League was founded on the principle of non-annexation of territories and that the mandates prohibited the alienation of territory (article 5 of the Palestine Mandate), have ruled that sovereignty rested with the people of a Mandated Territory, albeit in suspense since they could not exercise it.
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moon said:
Does the Koran claim unbroken Islamic occupation of Palestine ?
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Mi'raj | Meaning, Islam, & Significance | Britannica
Search domain britannica.comhttps://www.britannica.com/event/Miraj-Islam
But early in Islamic history the story of the ascension came to be associated with the story of Muhammad's night journey (Isrāʾ) from the "sacred place of worship" (Mecca) to the "further place of worship" (Jerusalem).

The Muslims claim Jerusalem as a religious imperative on the basis of the Prophet Mohammad's "Night Journey," no?
 
' Subject to the laws ' you say- correctly. So your ' freedom ' is curtailed and your claim is contradicted. You cannot ' go where you want to go, do what you want to do, with whomever you want to do it with ' without oversight by a ' higher authority '. In the case of the Zionists their ' freedom ' is overseen by a higher authority which deems their activities to be illegal.
 
Drummie123 said:
Mi'raj | Meaning, Islam, & Significance | Britannica
Search domain britannica.comhttps://www.britannica.com/event/Miraj-Islam
But early in Islamic history the story of the ascension came to be associated with the story of Muhammad's night journey (Isrāʾ) from the "sacred place of worship" (Mecca) to the "further place of worship" (Jerusalem).

The Muslims claim Jerusalem as a religious imperative on the basis of the Prophet Mohammad's "Night Journey," no?
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That doesn't address the question;

Does the Koran claim unbroken Islamic occupation of Palestine ?
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If "Son of the Revolution" is not allowed to post in this thread, then I won't post in this thread.

A discussion like this one can only benefit from the presence and input of someone directly or indirectly (by family association) affected by the Holocaust.

To ban him is the same as saying that a Palestinian should be banned from the discussion.

My resignation from this thread is a protest of his ban.
 
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Drummie123 said:
If "Son of the Revolution" is not allowed to post in this thread, then I won't post in this thread.

A discussion liked this can only benefit from the presence and input of someone directly or indirectly (by family association) affected by the Holocaust.

To ban him is the same as saying that a Palestinian should be banned from the discussion.

My resignation from this thread is a protest of his ban.
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'Scum of the Revolution' is sick in the head and has been quarantined. If you want to be nursemaid then go ahead. Ta ta.

No coming back now, ya hear ?
 
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