Hiroshima, 6 August 1945

Cypress said:
I have frequently wondered if the racial angle has any merit.

On the other hand, we burned some German cities to the ground and incinerated their civilian residents by dropping thousands of tons of chemical incendiaries on them.

The nuke strike on Hiroshima gets all the press. I am not sure being cooked to death in a mass incendiary attack is really much better.
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It's not. The American history we were taught as children was utterly whitewashed. I grew up learning of the horrific atrocities committed by the Nazis and the Japanese, but the firebombing of Dresden was barely mentioned. I was an adult before I learned of the internment camps in America for Japanese-American citizens. In the previous century, our many atrocities committed against the indigenous ppl were similarly dismissed. We were indoctrinated, propagandized, brainwashed.
 
Cypress said:
I have frequently wondered if the racial angle has any merit.

On the other hand, we burned some German cities to the ground and incinerated their civilian residents by dropping thousands of tons of chemical incendiaries on them.

The nuke strike on Hiroshima gets all the press. I am not sure being cooked to death in a mass incendiary attack is really much better.
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good point.......

On the night of March 9, 1945, U.S. warplanes launch a new bombing offensive against Japan, dropping 2,000 tons of incendiary bombs on Tokyo over the course of the next 48 hours. Almost 16 square miles in and around the Japanese capital were incinerated, and between 80,000 and 130,000 Japanese civilians were killed in the worst single firestorm in recorded history.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/firebombing-of-tokyo

pick your poison, Japan was going to pay dearly for murdering millions of innocent people no matter
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
It's not. The American history we were taught as children was utterly whitewashed. I grew up learning of the horrific atrocities committed by the Nazis and the Japanese, but the firebombing of Dresden was barely mentioned. I was an adult before I learned of the internment camps in America for Japanese-American citizens. In the previous century, our many atrocities committed against the indigenous ppl were similarly dismissed. We were indoctrinated, propagandized, brainwashed.
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maybe because I went to Catholic school and then Catholic HS -I learned all that.
Or maybe because history and civics were always my fav subject ( anything but math and chemistry! lol)
I always had an obsession for historical perspectives. However the trail of tears and such were not covered. true
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Bush said "Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."

https://edition.cnn.com/2001/US/11/06/gen.attack.on.terror/
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nothing wrong with that sentiment. However we did lose a lot of other nation's support because of Iraq.

Afghan was a much more clear reason to be there -but we didnt go into just kill terrorists, we also went in
to "build democracy" -doomed to fail because we became teh Afghan govt's guarantor
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
It's not. The American history we were taught as children was utterly whitewashed. I grew up learning of the horrific atrocities committed by the Nazis and the Japanese, but the firebombing of Dresden was barely mentioned. I was an adult before I learned of the internment camps in America for Japanese-American citizens. In the previous century, our many atrocities committed against the indigenous ppl were similarly dismissed. We were indoctrinated, propagandized, brainwashed.
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I think children are capable of handling the truth about any flaws we made, and what if any lessons we have learned in hindsight.

One thing that always bothered me is that all combatant armies - American, British, German - went to great pains to spare the cities of Paris and Rome from any destruction or even major battles. Those cities obviously loom large in the consciousness and cultural heritage of western civilization. Even the German Army took steps to spare Paris, against Hitler's orders.

There was no such caution offered to Tokyo.
 
dukkha said:
nothing wrong with that sentiment. However we did lose a lot of other nation's support because of Iraq.

Afghan was a much more clear reason to be there -but we didnt go into just kill terrorists, we also went in
to "build democracy" -doomed to fail because we became teh Afghan govt's guarantor
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Agreed about losing allied support and respect by doing to Iraq what the fucking Japanese did to us on December 7th, 1941.

The Afghan war got fucked up because the US pivoted and moved most assets to Iraq thus giving the Taliban and others time to rebuild.

Occupations of hostile countries are always bad. IMO, had we stayed only in Afghanistan and used our overwhelming force to hunt down every terrorist, every Taliban, then removed the military and replaced them with engineers and diplomats, the result would have been much better. Support, not "nation building" is what's needed.
 
History is written by the winners. If Japan won, they would have held trials and executed Ike and other generals. The atrocities committed by American troops would be banner headlines. The Japanese would be downplayed and ignored. Those who approved the Abomb would have received the worst treatment. War is man at his worst and all sides are fighting for their lives with no rules on a battlefield.
 
Cypress said:
I think children are capable of handling the truth about any flaws we made, and what if any lessons we have learned in hindsight.

One thing that always bothered me is that all combatant armies - American, British, German - went to great pains to spare the cities of Paris and Rome from any destruction or even major battles. Those cities obviously loom large in the consciousness and cultural heritage of western civilization. Even the German Army took steps to spare Paris, against Hitler's orders.

There was no such caution offered to Tokyo.
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A little absolutist there, ain'tcha? :)

Certainly there were cultural differences then, but not absolutes AFAIK. Any reference links for us to discuss?
 
Nordberg said:
History is written by the winners. If Japan won, they would have held trials and executed Ike and other generals. The atrocities committed by American troops would be banner headlines. The Japanese would be downplayed and ignored. Those who approved the Abomb would have received the worst treatment. War is man at his worst and all sides are fighting for their lives with no rules on a battlefield.
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The Trumpers love to mix a little bit a truth with a whole lot of opinion and BS to push their views forward. I see they aren't alone. :cool:
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Agreed about losing allied support and respect by doing to Iraq what the fucking Japanese did to us on December 7th, 1941.

The Afghan war got fucked up because the US pivoted and moved most assets to Iraq thus giving the Taliban and others time to rebuild.

Occupations of hostile countries are always bad. IMO, had we stayed only in Afghanistan and used our overwhelming force to hunt down every terrorist, every Taliban, then removed the military and replaced them with engineers and diplomats, the result would have been much better. Support, not "nation building" is what's needed.
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we gave them plenty of support. we tried to stand up a government . we built their armed forces
( Afghan National Armed Forces). we provided training, weapons, and air support
 
Jack said:
You should probably stick with Phantasmal and Owl. I think they are talking about the plight of Brittany Spears now. Doormats like yourself need to stay with what they are good at.
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You're full of ' probables ' and ' possibles ' crap. This forum is littered with instances of you being skewered by a fact.

" 'Death to the Infidels!' " ? You dumbass schmuck.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
A little absolutist there, ain'tcha? :)

Certainly there were cultural differences then, but not absolutes AFAIK. Any reference links for us to discuss?
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Right, I suggested before that I am not sold that racism was the driving factor in nuking Japan. We certainly turned Germany into a parking lot. I think the reason for nuking Japan really comes down to the fact after victory in Europe Americans were pretty much done with this war and a land invasion would have been politically, militarily, and logistically problematic.


The German Army's decision to defy Hitler and leave Paris unscathed is an interesting story. I doubt enemy combatants were thinking about saving Leningrad or Tokyo from destruction.
 
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