Hiroshima, 6 August 1945

[Sailor]

Sailor is just a bag of hot air. Don't pay any attn to him. That toss away post that you are referring to is typical fare.

Strangely one who continually shows your lack of education. You poor dumb fuck.

 

[Grumpy]

I was pretty much an asshole back in those days.

Only thing that has changed for you is the calendar ...

 

[Dutch Uncle]

IMO that is exactly how history -- ours, other nations', world -- should be taught. An individual or a nation cannot improve and prosper if it doesn't face the flaws and resolve to fix them. People are fond of saying "never forget" about historic horrors like the Holocaust. We must likewise never forget the wrong things that we as a country have done, so that we don't repeat them in the future. Unfortunately far too many, mostly on the RW, want to gloss over the ugly parts because they wrongly believe that learning about Japanese-American internment camps, slavery, residential schools, etc. will make kids hate America. In fact, when we bring up those ugly parts in discussion, we are often told that we hate America.

Patriotism is seeing both the good and the not-very-good in America, and loving her anyways.

The problem is we do forget. Who, besides me, thought "Remember Pearl Harbor!" on August 6th? LOL

20th anniversary of 9/11. There's certain to be a lot of events noting it...which presents big security issues due to COVID and the fact both foreign and domestic terrorists want to draw more American blood.

Like you, I think it's very important to remember the past. The problem isn't teaching the past but allowing people to become victimized today because of events over 150 years ago. Defund the Police, White Privilege, Critical Race Theory. Very few people actually understand and discuss these issues. Most primarily react emotionally with little reasoning to their anger much less thinking through their actions.

Newton's laws of motion can be applied to governments as well as steel balls.

Law #1 Stable governments are difficult to move, unstable are easier to move but control is minimal. The US was lucky our revolution didn't turn out as badly as the French, Russians, Cubans and many others. Once the rules break down, it's might makes right. There are no rules.

Law #2 The greater number of people focused upon one goal, the more likely that goal will be accomplished. People * motivation (physical and/or emotional) = Force. Before 9/11 people weren't very interested in airline security. Afterwards they were. The only change was motivation.

Law #3 At its most harmless, tit-for-tat. With people it has the ability to escalate into rash actions or war. Al-Qaeda attacked the WTC, Pentagon and probably aiming for the Capitol. The US reacted by flattening the Taliban government and al-Qaeda then engaged in a world-wide manhunt to take them all down. What were the terrorists thinking would happen? That the US would run away?

 

[Carmine]

Tokyo is a beautiful city, from what I can see.
If you like Las Vegas style colorful lighting, Tokyo certainly has that.
A second visit to Asia was never on my itinerary, but on television, Tokyo is very much my style.
It might be different in person...who knows?

Who's been there?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Only thing that has changed for you is the calendar ...

I like to think I've mellowed.

 

[Cypress]

IMO that is exactly how history -- ours, other nations', world -- should be taught. An individual or a nation cannot improve and prosper if it doesn't face the flaws and resolve to fix them. People are fond of saying "never forget" about historic horrors like the Holocaust. We must likewise never forget the wrong things that we as a country have done, so that we don't repeat them in the future. Unfortunately far too many, mostly on the RW, want to gloss over the ugly parts because they wrongly believe that learning about Japanese-American internment camps, slavery, residential schools, etc. will make kids hate America. In fact, when we bring up those ugly parts in discussion, we are often told that we hate America.

Patriotism is seeing both the good and the not-very-good in America, and loving her anyways.

In my opinion, teaching the true, aka unsanitized, version of American history to children is a form of moral instruction.

Here is where America lived up to it's professed values. And here is where she didn't, and what exactly did we learn from that?

 

[Jack]

You're full of ' probables ' and ' possibles ' crap. This forum is littered with instances of you being skewered by a fact.

" 'Death to the Infidels!' " ? You dumbass schmuck.

'Moon The Compassionate'.
Let's see?
Hebrews: "Smash the heads of the Babies against the Rocks".
Moon: "Show compassion".

See. This is how the European Jews took Palestine.

News Flash: If you don't fight for it, you lose it.

 

[Carmine]

Tokyo is a beautiful city, from what I can see.
If you like Las Vegas style colorful lighting, Tokyo certainly has that.
A second visit to Asia was never on my itinerary, but on television, Tokyo is very much my style.
It might be different in person...who knows?

Who's been there?

Nobody's been to Tokyo?

 

[Jack]

In my opinion, teaching the true, aka unsanitized, version of American history to children is a form of moral instruction.

Here is where America lived up to it's professed values. And here is where she didn't, and what exactly did we learn from that?

Try getting Owl to return her Land to the Rightful Owners. (The Bleeding Hearts here must Atone for theirs Sins)

 

[Jack]

Nobody's been to Tokyo?

"Population in Urban Area, now
37,334,482"

You would love it.

 

[Carmine]

Try getting Owl to return her Land to the Rightful Owners. (The Bleeding Hearts here must Atone for theirs Sins)

Admitting sins is one thing. Atonement may be more complicated.
Denying them, however, is in effect continually perpetrating them.

 

[Jack]

Admitting sins is one thing. Atonement may be more complicated.
Denying them, however, is in effect continually perpetrating them.

No one is denying that History is full of one 'Tribe' taking the Land of the next Tribe.
The odd and unusual part is when contemporary people that benefitted become so righteous in their Hindsight that they moan of the 'atrocities and cruelty' of the Event and how 'it was so wrong', but when it's time to atone, like giving your Land back to the original people, there's always some excuse why that can't be done.
So, whether you are the US, Russia, China, or Spain, teach your History. If the population feels guilt-ridden, give the Land to someone else, they will be proud and anxious to take it from you.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

In my opinion, teaching the true, aka unsanitized, version of American history to children is a form of moral instruction.

Here is where America lived up to it's professed values. And here is where she didn't, and what exactly did we learn from that?

Why just American history? Some make it sound like the US was the only nation to have slaves or that the American Revolution was about slavery. Worse, that every white person is guilty of slavery. All that does is create backlash. Weakest side loses.

You and I both know the history of mankind is written in blood. I'm fine with teaching all of it, but ask that all be taught in context.

An example would be pointing out that the onerous Treaty of Versailles forced by the Brits and French, not the US, was a major factor in the rise of assholes like Hitler. The Germans still have to own their piece of it, but Hitler didn't arise in a vacuum. The Treaty itself would never have happened if the Euros were not using 20th Century weaponry and having 19th Century minds on when to use them.

The impact of WWI on Europe, and the US entry into stopping the carnage, is the key event leading to the rest of the century.

Context.

 

[Cypress]

The quotes prove Nordberg was correct about Ike, who was in Germany and never fought the Japanese, but his conspiracy theory crap about bumping up casualty numbers to justify usage of the weapon is as full of shit as the accusations about puffing up COVID deaths.

There are a lot of eyes on big things like this. The Manhattan Project was our biggest secret and even it got out to the Soviets in a couple of years. Secrets don't stay secret for long.

All of this backbiting ignores the fact Americans were dying in combat every day; on land, on sea and in the air.

It is the duty of every American leader to end all wars successfully and with minimum losses. They did that in August 1945.

The problem I see with Eisenhower was that he was not a fan of FDRs demand that Germany surrender unconditionally and submit to having their government dismantled and rebuilt by us from the ground up.

As a conservative Midwesterner, I do not think Ike was keen on nation building.

He was of course willing and comiitted to carry out FDR' s orders as a professional soldier.

But if it was up to Ike, he probably would have given terms to Germany and Japan, and allowed them to keep some form of their government intact (perhaps with different leaders) as long as their army stood down and withdrew from occupied territories.

FDR/Truman actually had the better vision. He was not going to accommodate Germany and Japan with terms, and he intended to annihilate them, occupy them, dismantle their government wholesale, build them from the ground up, and hold war crimes tribunals.

In other words, FDR/ Truman were playing for all the marbles - to nation-build.

History has shown that to have been the vision that the world needed.

 

[Bulletbob]

Why just American history? Some make it sound like the US was the only nation to have slaves or that the American Revolution was about slavery.

You and I both know the history of mankind is written in blood. I'm fine with teaching, but ask that all be taught in context.

An example would be pointing out that the onerous Treaty of Versailles forced by the Brits and French, not the US, was a major factor in the rise of assholes like Hitler. The Germans still have to own their piece of it, but Hitler didn't arise in a vacuum. The Treaty itself would never have happened if the Euros were using 20th Century weaponry and using 19th Century minds on when to use them.

Context.

Ill be dammed you said something that I mostly agree with

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Admitting sins is one thing. Atonement may be more complicated.
Denying them, however, is in effect continually perpetrating them.

Agreed.

Part of the problem is defining what sins others are being accused.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The problem I see with Eisenhower was that he was not a fan of FDRs demand that Germany surrender unconditionally and submit to having their government dismantled and rebuilt by us from the ground up.

As a conservative Midwesterner, I do not think Ike was keen on nation building.

He was of course willing and comiitted to carry out FDR' s orders as a professional soldier.

But if it was up to Ike, he probably would have given terms to Germany and Japan, and allowed them to keep some form of their government intact (perhaps with different leaders) as long as their army stood down and withdrew from occupied territories.

FDR/Truman actually had the better vision. He was not going to accommodate Germany and Japan with terms, and he intended to annihilate them, occupy them, dismantle their government wholesale, build them from the ground up, and hold war crimes tribunals.

In other words, FDR/ Truman were playing for all the marbles - to nation-build.

History has shown that to have been the vision that the world needed.

That's a stronger argument, IMHO. That Ike would have given terms rather than force unconditional surrender. It would have altered the strategy for victory.

I'm not sure what you mean by nation-building, especially in 1945. Was the Marshall Plan, and MacArthur's Pacific version of it, nation-building? A smart strategy is to do what the Euros didn't do 25 years earlier, try to avoid a repeat of a world war.

 

[Nordberg]

You and actual history have obviously never crossed paths.

In your super slanted right wing opinion. That is intune with others who consume propaganda thoughtlessly. No thought or fact. This is what we did to Tokyo.https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/firebombing-of-tokyo I can back what I say. You never can.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Nobody's been to Tokyo?

Camp Fuji for a week. Iwakuni for a month. Matsushima for 10 days. The last one was in winter and I froze my ass off.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

That's a stronger argument, IMHO. That Ike would have given terms rather than force unconditional surrender. It would have altered the strategy for victory.

I'm not sure what you mean by nation-building, especially in 1945. Was the Marshall Plan, and MacArthur's Pacific version of it, nation-building? A smart strategy is to do what the Euros didn't do 25 years earlier, try to avoid a repeat of a world war.

It wasn't Eisenhower's decision to make any more than it was MacArthur's or Nimitz' in the Pacific. The smart thing the US did was the Marshall Plan in Europe and Japan. That pretty much ensured that Germany and Japan would not have a grudge to bear from defeat, unlike Eastern Europe that learned to hate the USSR with a passion.