Hiroshima, 6 August 1945

Dutch Uncle said:
With all respect to Ike, he was in Germany at the time documenting Nazi death camps. While the Japanese were definitely in desperate straights, as proved at Okinawa and Iwo Jima, the Japanese weren't surrendering even if all they had were rocks to throw. They were die-hard warriors and the people felt the same way as a culture. Spartan-like.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_D._Eisenhower#Liberation_of_France_and_victory_in_Europe
The Soviet Red Army captured Berlin in a very large-scale bloody battle, and the Germans finally surrendered on May 7, 1945.

In 1945, Eisenhower anticipated that someday an attempt would be made to recharacterize Nazi crimes as propaganda (Holocaust denial) and took steps against it by demanding extensive still and movie photographic documentation of Nazi death camps.
Click to expand...

Polish Witold Pilecki already documented the Holocaust...

Some Poles fought in the Battle of Berlin including Soviet General Konstatine Rokossovosky, also Poles were the first to capture Montecassino, had the best squadron in the Battle of Britain the 303 Kosciuszko squadron.
Helped close the Falaise pocket at Hill 262.

8% of the USA armed forces were Polish including Gabby Gabreski the top USA fighter ace in the European campaign.

Poles were also the first the crack the German enigma.
 
AlbertEinstein said:
Somehow I'm thinking YOU supported the Iraq war at first.
Click to expand...

No telling what a spaz like you thinks, Spaz.

I fully supported the war in Afghanistan including nuking it if necessary but the Iraq invasion, much less the occupation, was unnecessary.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
No telling what a spaz like you thinks, Spaz.

I fully supported the war in Afghanistan including nuking it if necessary but the Iraq invasion, much less the occupation, was unnecessary.
Click to expand...

What do you get when you nuke rocks and sand--smaller rocks and radioactive sand?
If we nuke Afghanistan, how much radioactivity will Pakistan and India inherit?
Russia would get some, too? How might they react to that?

What the fuck. Let the nukes fly.
Humanity has already had a decent run and nothing lasts forever anyway.
We're all getting bored and can use the excitement.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
What do you get when you nuke rocks and sand--smaller rocks and radioactive sand?
If we nuke Afghanistan, how much radioactivity will Pakistan and India inherit?
Russia would get some, too? How might they react to that?

What the fuck. Let the nukes fly.
Humanity has already had a decent run and nothing lasts forever anyway.
We're all getting bored and can use the excitement.
Click to expand...

Exotic glass.

Consequences always should be considered when taking action or even choosing not to do anything.

On 1/6 Trump held off doing anything. Does that make him culpable?

Regardless of degree, all levels of action, violent or diplomatic, should be considered along with all their pros and cons. It would be derelict to not consider all possibilities that could, in this case, end the war ASAP in light of the fact the Allies demanded unconditional surrender...a common demand for major wars.

The good news is the US, once again, saved our Euro cousins from themselves.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
The good news is the US, once again, saved our Euro cousins from themselves.
Click to expand...

We did the job in the Pacific, but Uncle Joe did a lot of the heavy lifting in Europe. He was the Eastern jaw of the vice which was HUGE.

I never criticize our involvement in WWII.

Three countries all declared war on us first...including my ancestral homeland. [They need to stick to sports cars, dress shoes, and sunglasses; they do that shit GREAT.]

We didn't start that war for shits and giggles, although we still had war profiteers.

And without WWII, I'd be a couple of years older now.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
We did the job in the Pacific, but Uncle Joe did a lot of the heavy lifting in Europe. He was the Eastern jaw of the vice which was HUGE.

I never criticize our involvement in WWII.

Three countries all declared war on us first...including my ancestral homeland. [They need to stick to sports cars, dress shoes, and sunglasses; they do that shit GREAT.]

We didn't start that war for shits and giggles, although we still had war profiteers.

And without WWII, I'd be a couple of years older now.
Click to expand...

Uncle Joe survived on Lend Lease just like the Brits. American industrial capacity won the war against the German war machine. Russians certainly supplied the bodies.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Uncle Joe survived on Lend Lease just like the Brits. American industrial capacity won the war against the German war machine. Russians certainly supplied the bodies.
Click to expand...

The Nazi propaganda machine are the ones who started the myth that the Soviets were only capable of launching human wave attacks. That is a myth which has perpetuated through time.

By 1943, Soviet military technology was fully capable of beating the Germans on the battlefield and in the air. The T-34 was the best tank produced during the war, hands down, and second generation Soviet fighter aircraft were equal to what the Brits and Germans were producing. As a military strategist, Field Marshal Zhukov was the equal of Bradley, Patton, Eisenhower, or Montgomery. Soviet artillery and rocket attacks brought overwhelming firepower to the field of battle.

By 1945, German soldiers reputedly considered the fighting prowess of the Red Army to be superior to the American, British, Canadian armies.

The victory in Europe was a team effort, but the war had already been won at Stalingrad in 1942-43.
 
Cypress said:
The Nazi propaganda machine are the ones who started the myth that the Soviets were only capable of launching human wave attacks. That is a myth which has perpetuated through time.

By 1943, Soviet military technology was fully capable of beating the Germans on the battlefield and in the air. The T-34 was the best tank produced during the war, hands down, and second generation Soviet fighter aircraft were equal to what the Brits and Germans were producing. As a military strategist, Field Marshal Zhukov was the equal of Bradley, Patton, Eisenhower, or Montgomery. Soviet artillery and rocket attacks brought overwhelming firepower to the field of battle.

By 1945, German soldiers reputedly considered the fighting prowess of the Red Army to be superior to the American, British, Canadian armies.

The victory in Europe was a team effort, but the war had already been won at Stalingrad in 1942-43.
Click to expand...

How do you know when Nazis are lying? Their lips are moving. I never trust anything they say without confirming it twice.

The T-34 was an excellent tank, but as the first link details, it had major flaws.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/best-tank-part-1-t-34.html

This list has it #2 behind the German Tiger https://www.hotcars.com/ranking-best-tanks-of-wwii/

This link points out an excellent point on tanks: How they are intended to be used. The T-34 was used to kill German tanks. The US M-4 was used as calvary to support infantry movement. https://www.businessinsider.com/the-uss-best-tank-in-world-war-ii-rarely-saw-combat-2018-7
 
Dutch Uncle said:
How do you know when Nazis are lying? Their lips are moving. I never trust anything they say without confirming it twice.

The T-34 was an excellent tank, but as the first link details, it had major flaws.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/best-tank-part-1-t-34.html

This list has it #2 behind the German Tiger https://www.hotcars.com/ranking-best-tanks-of-wwii/

This link points out an excellent point on tanks: How they are intended to be used. The T-34 was used to kill German tanks. The US M-4 was used as calvary to support infantry movement. https://www.businessinsider.com/the-uss-best-tank-in-world-war-ii-rarely-saw-combat-2018-7
Click to expand...

I have seen photos of German soldiers using captured Soviet equipment - PPsh-41 submachine guns, T34 tank - indicating to me the Germans recognized the value of the later generation Soviet military technology.

We substantially outnumbered Japanese forces numerically after 1942, but no one ever accused us of human wave attacks or downplayed our ability because we had a numerical advantage.

German propaganda about Soviets only capable of human wave attacks played in perfectly with their racial propaganda of inferior Asiatic hordes from the eastern steppes.

Slavic inferiority was ingrained in Nazi propaganda from the beginning. General Plan East was premised on the inferiority of the eastern Asiatic hordes from the Russian steppes.

The Nazis were never going to publicly admit Soviet military technology and tactics were contributing to German defeat on the battlefield.
 
Cypress said:
I have seen photos of German soldiers using captured Soviet equipment - PPsh-41 submachine guns, T34 tank - indicating to me the Germans recognized the value of the later generation Soviet military technology.

We substantially outnumbered Japanese forces numerically after 1942, but no one ever accused us of human wave attacks or downplayed our ability because we had a numerical advantage.

German propaganda about Soviets only capable of human wave attacks played in perfectly with their racial propaganda of inferior Asiatic hordes from the eastern steppes.

Slavic inferiority was ingrained in Nazi propaganda from the beginning. General Plan East was premised on the inferiority of the eastern Asiatic hordes from the Russian steppes.

The Nazis were never going to publicly admit Soviet military technology and tactics were contributing to German defeat on the battlefield.
Click to expand...

I never saw the Nazi propaganda. I like my AKs and SKSs. :)
 
Cypress said:
...German propaganda about Soviets only capable of human wave attacks played in perfectly with their racial propaganda of inferior Asiatic hordes from the eastern steppes....
Click to expand...

What's wrong with human waves?

This discussion caused me to review unconditional surrender. It's a judgement call. Twice in one century is two too many. Additionally, after the massive loss of life, Truman knew Americans wanted something to show for it. There were also the Soviets to consider.

https://cis.mit.edu/publications/analysis-opinion/2020/unconditional-japanese-surrender-world-war-ii
President Harry Truman believed unconditional surrender would keep the Soviet Union involved while reassuring American voters and soldiers that their sacrifices in a total war would be compensated by total victory. Disarming enemy militaries was the start; consolidating democracy abroad was the goal. Only by refusing to deal with dictators could Germany and Japan be redesigned root to branch,


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconditional_surrender#World_War_II
...It has also been argued that without the demand for unconditional surrender, Central Europe might not have fallen behind the Iron Curtain.[12] "It was a policy that the Soviet Union accepted with alacrity, probably because a completely destroyed Germany would facilitate Russia's postwar expansion program." It has also been claimed to have prolonged the war with Japan or to be a cause of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (see debate over the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki).

One reason for the policy was that the Allies wished to avoid a repetition of the stab-in-the-back myth, which had arisen in Germany after World War I and attributed Germany's loss to betrayal by Jews, Bolsheviks, and Socialists, as well as the fact that the war ended before the Allies had reached Germany. The myth was used by the Nazis in their propaganda. An unconditional surrender was felt to ensure that the Germans knew that they had lost the war themselves.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
What's wrong with human waves?

This discussion caused me to review unconditional surrender. It's a judgement call. Twice in one century is two too many. Additionally, after the massive loss of life, Truman knew Americans wanted something to show for it. There were also the Soviets to consider.

https://cis.mit.edu/publications/analysis-opinion/2020/unconditional-japanese-surrender-world-war-ii
President Harry Truman believed unconditional surrender would keep the Soviet Union involved while reassuring American voters and soldiers that their sacrifices in a total war would be compensated by total victory. Disarming enemy militaries was the start; consolidating democracy abroad was the goal. Only by refusing to deal with dictators could Germany and Japan be redesigned root to branch,


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconditional_surrender#World_War_II
...It has also been argued that without the demand for unconditional surrender, Central Europe might not have fallen behind the Iron Curtain.[12] "It was a policy that the Soviet Union accepted with alacrity, probably because a completely destroyed Germany would facilitate Russia's postwar expansion program." It has also been claimed to have prolonged the war with Japan or to be a cause of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (see debate over the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki).

One reason for the policy was that the Allies wished to avoid a repetition of the stab-in-the-back myth, which had arisen in Germany after World War I and attributed Germany's loss to betrayal by Jews, Bolsheviks, and Socialists, as well as the fact that the war ended before the Allies had reached Germany. The myth was used by the Nazis in their propaganda. An unconditional surrender was felt to ensure that the Germans knew that they had lost the war themselves.
Click to expand...

Human waves are a waste of lives and of marginal military effectiveness

That is why the Japanese army generally gave up banzai charges after Guadalcanal.

The Soviets had significant numerical advantage over the Germans, just like we had a significant numerical advantage over the Japanese. That does not detract from the strategy, technology, and combined armed tactics USA and USSR used to defeat their adversaries.

I have always felt the Nazi propaganda of Russian human wave attacks was intended to jibe with their racial profiling of the mindless hordes of eastern Asiatics threatening civilized Europe from the Russian steppes.
 
Cypress said:
Human waves are a waste of lives and of marginal military effectiveness

That is why the Japanese army generally gave up banzai charges after Guadalcanal.

The Soviets had significant numerical advantage over the Germans, just like we had a significant numerical advantage over the Japanese. That does not detract from the strategy, technology, and combined armed tactics USA and USSR used to defeat their adversaries.

I have always felt the Nazi propaganda of Russian human wave attacks was intended to jibe with their racial profiling of the mindless hordes of eastern Asiatics threatening civilized Europe from the Russian steppes.
Click to expand...

True, but if one is heavy on people and low on weapons, a few human wave attacks can net more weapons.

Fuck the Nazis. I never trust liars.
 
Cypress said:
Human waves are a waste of lives and of marginal military effectiveness

That is why the Japanese army generally gave up banzai charges after Guadalcanal.
Click to expand...

They never did give those up. The mass frontal assault--aka, Banzai charge--was most of the time resorted to out of lack of leadership's ability to devise a reasonable plan of attack, or out of desperation. At Guadalcanal, the two mass frontal assaults can be chalked up to ignorance on the leadership's part where a reasonable plan of attack wasn't devised.

The Ichiki detachment's commander--originally slated to invade Midway before the naval debacle--Attacked the Marine position he did out of a combination of arrogance and ignorance. Colonel Ichiki, a veteran of China, thought the Marines numbered at most maybe a thousand total when there were nearly 20,000 on the island. He also thought they were poorly trained troops who would run from a bayonet charge.
Instead his roughly 900 men ran into a well dug in Marine position backed by artillery and tanks numbering about 1000 troops. The Marines slaughtered the Japanese for their arrogance and ignorance.

The second was the Kawaguchi brigade of about 6,000 men. They attacked a similar Marine position (Edson's Ridge) manned in part by Marine Raiders and Parachute battalion who were crack troops and long term veterans of combat. Again, the Japanese got butchered for their incompetence.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
They never did give those up. The mass frontal assault--aka, Banzai charge--was most of the time resorted to out of lack of leadership's ability to devise a reasonable plan of attack, or out of desperation. At Guadalcanal, the two mass frontal assaults can be chalked up to ignorance on the leadership's part where a reasonable plan of attack wasn't devised.

The Ichiki detachment's commander--originally slated to invade Midway before the naval debacle--Attacked the Marine position he did out of a combination of arrogance and ignorance. Colonel Ichiki, a veteran of China, thought the Marines numbered at most maybe a thousand total when there were nearly 20,000 on the island. He also thought they were poorly trained troops who would run from a bayonet charge.
Instead his roughly 900 men ran into a well dug in Marine position backed by artillery and tanks numbering about 1000 troops. The Marines slaughtered the Japanese for their arrogance and ignorance.

The second was the Kawaguchi brigade of about 6,000 men. They attacked a similar Marine position (Edson's Ridge) manned in part by Marine Raiders and Parachute battalion who were crack troops and long term veterans of combat. Again, the Japanese got butchered for their incompetence.
Click to expand...

I think at Guadalcanal the banzai change was thought to be a legitimate military tactic. After Guadalcanal, most banzai charges occured when the situation became hopeless for the Japanese, and they were committed to dying rather than surrendering. By the time of Iwo Jima and Okinawa, I think they had stopped banzai charges
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top