Reality check on electric cars

Glad to see you back peddling from saying you know science and this type of improvement is not possible, as you have been saying prior. Glad to you move from that stupidity.

I never said improvement wasn't possible. I've consistently stated that battery technology is limited by chemistry and physics.
The ability to carry around fuel, when it comes to the utility of an EV versus ICE would be important to less than a fraction of 1% of drivers.

Wrong! Many drivers where I live have vehicles, particularly off-road vehicles like 4-wheel drive and such that carry or can carry extra fuel. You see them regularly here. In fact, I'd say in something like 70% of the territory of the US that is a consideration. Just because YOU live in some big city doesn't mean everyone does and it doesn't mean that everyone never goes out into rural wilderness.
Far more impactful is the convenience of where fuel can be obtained and how long it takes to fuel up. Something ICE had by chasmic advantage but has been rapidly declining as the EV technology improves.

And in that respect, ICE vehicles have always beaten EV's hands down. Even in the early days of ICE vehicles, you could get gasoline at hardware and general stores in gallon cans. This was before gas stations popped up (and those weren't government supported). Getting electricity to some rural area at the time was not going to happen.
And we are still at the early stages of EV tech advancement with mass amounts of VC money betting more major ones will come
No, we're in the phase where EV improvements are incremental and expensive. EV's have been around for almost 175 years. The technology is not advancing much over what was available even 100 years ago.

The ONLY reason EV's are being pushed is the Leftist environmentalist front and their politician supporters have convinced themselves that saving the planet requires their adoption and have gotten government to heavily subsidize them while regulating alternatives out of existence. In a free market, EV's fail every time. They have always remained a niche vehicle type with a small fraction of buyers.
 
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EV's today are just a bit more efficient than they were 100 years ago...

I never said improvement wasn't possible. I've consistently stated that battery technology is limited by chemistry and physics.


Wrong! Many drivers where I live have vehicles, particularly off-road vehicles like 4-wheel drive and such that carry or can carry extra fuel. You see them regularly here. In fact, I'd say in something like 70% of the territory of the US that is a consideration. Just because YOU live in some big city doesn't mean everyone does and it doesn't mean that everyone never goes out into rural wilderness.


And in that respect, ICE vehicles have always beaten EV's hands down. Even in the early days of ICE vehicles, you could get gasoline at hardware and general stores in gallon cans. This was before gas stations popped up (and those weren't government supported). Getting electricity to some rural area at the time was not going to happen.

No, we're in the phase where EV improvements are incremental and expensive. EV's have been around for almost 175 years. The technology is not advancing much over what was available even 100 years ago.

The ONLY reason EV's are being pushed is the Leftist environmentalist front and their politician supporters have convinced themselves that saving the planet requires their adoption and have gotten government to heavily subsidize them while regulating alternatives out of existence. In a free market, EV's fail every time. They have always remained a niche vehicle type with a small fraction of buyers.
what you say above is lies and garbage as always.

You have CONTINUALLY said improvements were not possible and none of happened since the early 1900's. You have argued the science limits them to where they are now, with regards to improvements that could continue to make them competitive with ICE and close that conveniance gap.

It does not matter how many people you know who carry around fuel cans with them, as that DOES NOT change the FACT that of the buying populace for ALL VEHICLES that populace represents a fraction of a fraction of a percent. Well over 99% of people who will buy a car in america today WILL NOT refuse to buy a vehicle based on ability to carry fuel around with them and you are stupid thinking that there is enough of them to determine if a manufacturer or industry can be viable, without that aspect.

We are in a phase where EV improvements are coming fast and furious and they are SUBSTANTIAL. The difference between operating an EV today for 90+% of the population compared to the early 1900's, where you claim we have seen no improvements making it better for drivers is the exact of your lies on this topic.

For the vast majority (90%+) of the population whose driving consists of work/home/errands around town/3-5 hour occasional weekend getaway, an EV is now not only as good as ICE but often better as they can fuel at home and do everything ICE can otherwsie.

You live in a lie while telling lies as you are a shameless ideologue who cannot handle the facts and truth. And those TRUTHS are:

- EV's have mad substantial advancements making them fully viable alternatives for the vast majority of the driving populace (ex dealing with deep cold weather since you poster earlier that was a big limitation)
- the technology is the midst of a massive improvement curve with significant advancements since Tesla came on the scene and spurred this new wave
- there is no reason to believe the advancements will not continue and that EV's may exceed ICE in all the main measures that the vast majority of drivers require
 
what you say above is lies and garbage as always.

You have CONTINUALLY said improvements were not possible and none of happened since the early 1900's. You have argued the science limits them to where they are now, with regards to improvements that could continue to make them competitive with ICE and close that conveniance gap.

It does not matter how many people you know who carry around fuel cans with them, as that DOES NOT change the FACT that of the buying populace for ALL VEHICLES that populace represents a fraction of a fraction of a percent. Well over 99% of people who will buy a car in america today WILL NOT refuse to buy a vehicle based on ability to carry fuel around with them and you are stupid thinking that there is enough of them to determine if a manufacturer or industry can be viable, without that aspect.

We are in a phase where EV improvements are coming fast and furious and they are SUBSTANTIAL. The difference between operating an EV today for 90+% of the population compared to the early 1900's, where you claim we have seen no improvements making it better for drivers is the exact of your lies on this topic.

For the vast majority (90%+) of the population whose driving consists of work/home/errands around town/3-5 hour occasional weekend getaway, an EV is now not only as good as ICE but often better as they can fuel at home and do everything ICE can otherwsie.

You live in a lie while telling lies as you are a shameless ideologue who cannot handle the facts and truth. And those TRUTHS are:

- EV's have mad substantial advancements making them fully viable alternatives for the vast majority of the driving populace (ex dealing with deep cold weather since you poster earlier that was a big limitation)
- the technology is the midst of a massive improvement curve with significant advancements since Tesla came on the scene and spurred this new wave
- there is no reason to believe the advancements will not continue and that EV's may exceed ICE in all the main measures that the vast majority of drivers require
Then why have they never moved beyond being niche vehicles if they're so great? Manufacturers have had about 175 years to get them on the market and make them competitive with ICE vehicles and yet, no one's managed to do it except with massive government help to tip the scales in their favor.
 
Then why have they never moved beyond being niche vehicles if they're so great? Manufacturers have had about 175 years to get them on the market and make them competitive with ICE vehicles and yet, no one's managed to do it except with massive government help to tip the scales in their favor.
because the segment since Tesla launch is still relatively young and early in adoption curve and the main issue, which has been 'access to charging stations and time to charge' are still being developed and rolled out.

ICE engines existed for almost 200 years before they could develop into a real competitor to the Horse and Buggy. This was despite the fact ICE fuel could be carried in cans and the vehicles refueled while out. The main thing you claim is why ICE is practical now and EV is not, did not help ICE barely at all to compete with the Horse and Buggy.

It was the advent of gas stations, and NOT portable fuel in cans, that was one of the main game changes for ICE along with the massive government help in providing ICE a network of connected roadways.

EVO_FIG.jpg
 
because the segment since Tesla launch is still relatively young and early in adoption curve and the main issue, which has been 'access to charging stations and time to charge' are still being developed and rolled out.

ICE engines existed for almost 200 years before they could develop into a real competitor to the Horse and Buggy. This was despite the fact ICE fuel could be carried in cans and the vehicles refueled while out. The main thing you claim is why ICE is practical now and EV is not, did not help ICE barely at all to compete with the Horse and Buggy.

It was the advent of gas stations, and NOT portable fuel in cans, that was one of the main game changes for ICE along with the massive government help in providing ICE a network of connected roadways.

EVO_FIG.jpg
How much of that is due to government mandates and subsidies as opposed to consumer choice. In Norway for example, the government found few people willing to buy EV's until they slapped huge penalties on ICE vehicles and huge incentives and subsidies on EV's. Then people started buying them.

In the US much of the market has been the same way. In fact, that's been the case pretty much everywhere.
 
How much of that is due to government mandates and subsidies as opposed to consumer choice. In Norway for example, the government found few people willing to buy EV's until they slapped huge penalties on ICE vehicles and huge incentives and subsidies on EV's. Then people started buying them.

In the US much of the market has been the same way. In fact, that's been the case pretty much everywhere.
Does not matter based on how subsidized and bailed out ICE has been since it over took the horse and buggy. Another thing you lie about and deny.
 
It hasn't. ICE vehicles were heavily subsidized through say, 1950, if at all.
ya your repeat cycle of just saying the same disproven lie over and over does not work. ICE vehicles are noted amongst the most subsidized industries in US history from tax payer bailout cash to other forms of direct and indirect subsidies. that data has been posted numerous times in this thread.
 
You cannot get around chemistry. Batteries operate on chemical properties and chemistry.

Batteries rely on chemistry to work. It is the difference in electrical potential between two different elements that makes them work. Therefore, the most you can get voltage-wise out of a single battery cell in voltage is that difference and that amounts to about 3 volts and change per cell at most.

Cell size determines the time it can produce voltage. The bigger the cell, the longer it works. Density of the materials will also have an impact, but that is extremely limited in terms of what you can do with it.

The chemical reaction also has a rate at which it can occur and is generally exothermic.

Batteries can improve some and have since 1900. New types using different elements have been discovered. That changes none of the above. The problem with batteries is that they have low energy density and where the chemical reaction can be reversed allowing for battery recharge, that rate is set by the reaction rate and amount of heat generated in the process.

You are too stupid to grasp that there are serious limitations on using batteries and DC electric motors to power vehicles and those limitations make such vehicles undesirable for a broad range of applications outside of passenger vehicles.

Time to 'fact check' Terry the 'I understand science so this cannot be true or accurate' guys statements in his favorite way.






Q : There have been many new published innovations in EV’s and especially battery technology. Can you fact those claims versus what is said by this poster in the two posts provided in a chat forum and his claims to understand science and claims about the science.

AI review

A: The forum poster seems to be using a technique common on forums and amongst certain advocates where they present a basic truth, thinking it will give them a certain fact check credibility, but then they layer on top misinformation or lies.

The general information provided by the forum poster is outdated, oversimplified or simply incorrect when applied to modern battery research and published developments.

Conclusion is that this poster either does not understand the science or is deliberately being misleading with his use of it.

AI not holding any punches as it calls out Terry's lies.


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The full fact for breakdown of everything Terry gets wrong, and it is everything as Terry got NONE of his conclusions correct. Not one.

Here's a point-by-point fact check.
1. "The most you can get voltage-wise out of a single battery cell is about 3 volts and change per cell"
Partially true, but misleading.

Battery voltage is determined by the electrochemical potential difference between the cathode and anode materials. There is no universal 3-volt limit.
Examples:
  • Traditional lead-acid cells: ~2.0V
  • NiMH cells: ~1.2V
  • LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate): ~3.2V
  • NMC/NCA lithium-ion cells: ~3.6–3.7V nominal
  • Some lithium chemistries exceed 4V operating voltage
Modern battery development isn't primarily focused on raising cell voltage indefinitely; researchers improve:
  • energy density
  • charge rate
  • cycle life
  • safety
  • temperature performance
So while chemistry constrains voltage, the claim that batteries are essentially capped at "3 volts and change" is not a useful description of current battery innovation.

2. "Cell size determines the time it can produce voltage"
Only partly true.

A larger cell generally stores more energy, but energy storage is not determined solely by physical size.
Energy stored depends on:


Capacity is affected by:
  • active material chemistry
  • electrode design
  • separator design
  • electrolyte
  • packing efficiency
  • silicon or sodium additions
  • cell architecture
For example, CATL's newer batteries achieve dramatically higher energy density than older batteries occupying similar volume. CATL's latest Qilin and Condensed batteries claim significant increases in Wh/kg and Wh/L through chemistry and structural improvements rather than simply making cells larger.
So the statement is technically true in a basic sense but ignores most of what modern battery engineers actually work on.

3. "Density of materials has an impact, but that is extremely limited"
False.

This is probably the biggest error.
Energy density improvements have been one of the major achievements of battery development.
Recent examples:
  • CATL's first sodium-ion batteries reached roughly 160 Wh/kg.
  • CATL's Naxtra sodium-ion batteries are now around 175 Wh/kg and approaching LFP territory.
  • CATL's latest Qilin batteries are reported around 280 Wh/kg.
  • CATL's Condensed battery claims roughly 350 Wh/kg.
Those are not tiny improvements.
Going from roughly 150–180 Wh/kg to 280–350 Wh/kg represents enormous gains in practical vehicle range and storage capability.

4. "The chemical reaction has a rate at which it can occur"
Correct.

This is fundamental electrochemistry.
Every battery chemistry has limits on:
  • ion transport
  • electron transport
  • heat generation
  • electrode degradation
Historically this was why fast charging was difficult.
However, CATL, BYD, and others have spent years engineering around these bottlenecks through:
  • nano-structured electrodes
  • lower resistance separators
  • improved electrolytes
  • thermal management systems
  • cell architecture redesign
CATL specifically attributes its Shenxing battery's charging performance to changes in cathode crystallization, electrolyte conductivity, anode design, and separator technology.
So the basic statement is true, but modern engineering has dramatically increased the practical reaction rates.

5. "The reaction rate and heat generation set recharge speed"
Generally true, but incomplete.

Recharge speed is constrained by:
  • lithium plating risk
  • thermal management
  • electrolyte transport
  • electrode diffusion
  • charging infrastructure
The poster implies these limits are nearly fixed.
Reality:
CATL now claims:
  • 10–80% charge in under 4 minutes on some systems.
  • 10–98% charge in roughly 6.5 minutes.
BYD has announced similar ultra-fast charging figures.
This demonstrate that recharge rate is not some immutable chemistry ceiling.

6. "The problem with batteries is that they have low energy density"
Depends what you're comparing them to.

Compared to gasoline:
Yes.
Gasoline still wins massively on raw energy density.
Approximate comparison:
  • Gasoline: ~12,000 Wh/kg
  • Modern EV batteries: ~250–350 Wh/kg
However, electric drivetrains are vastly more efficient.
A gasoline engine:
  • ~20–30% efficient
An EV drivetrain:
  • ~85–95% efficient
So the practical gap is much smaller than the raw numbers suggest.

What CATL's announcements actually challenge
The poster's argument sounds like something that would have been common around 2010:
"Battery chemistry has fundamental limits, therefore dramatic improvements aren't possible."
But CATL's recent announcements are not claiming to violate chemistry.
They are claiming advances in:
  • electrode materials
  • sodium-ion chemistry
  • pack architecture
  • thermal management
  • charging current handling
  • manufacturing methods
Those are exactly the areas where battery improvements have historically occurred.

Overall Verdict

Claim

Assessment

Voltage limited by chemistry

Mostly true

About 3 volts is the maximum

Misleading

Larger cells mainly determine runtime

Oversimplified

Density improvements are extremely limited

Largely false

Reaction rates constrain charging

True

Charging speed is basically fixed by chemistry

False

Batteries inherently have low energy density vs gasoline

True

Modern battery innovation can't substantially improve performance

Contradicted by real-world progress
The strongest flaw in the poster's reasoning is that he treats battery chemistry limits as if they were already fully exploited. The history of batteries over the last 15 years has shown the opposite: engineers keep finding ways to push energy density, charging speed, cycle life, and cold-weather performance significantly higher without violating the underlying laws of electrochemistry. CATL's latest claims—whether all ultimately prove commercially practical or not—are examples of that continuing trend rather than evidence that chemistry has somehow been "beaten."
 
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