Archaeology of the New Testament

[Jerry Mathers]

There is only two choices, the rational or the irrational.

There is not a third, intermediate choice. One can't be only partly pregnant.

We can see the universe is rational and lawful. That seems to mean something. The cause of the rational and lawful is either something rational, or it's something irrational.

false dichotomy.

this is your idiotic construction.

 

[Cypress]

false dichotomy!!

Only two choices. There isn't a third choice.

I totally understand why you don't want to make the argument that a rational and lawful universe is best explained as being caused by the irrational and inanimate.

 

[Jerry Mathers]

There is only two choices, the rational or the irrational.

There is not a third, intermediate choice. One can't be only partly pregnant.

We can see the universe is rational and lawful. That seems to mean something. The cause of the rational and lawful is either something rational, or it's something irrational.

if the universe rational how did it start?

 

[Jerry Mathers]

Only two choices. There isn't a third choice.

I totally understand why you don't want to make the argument that a rational and lawful universe is best explained as being caused by the irrational and inanimate.

I reject your notion that the universe is lawful.

 

[Cypress]

I reject your notion that the universe is lawful!

Then you reject Albert Einstein, Isaac Newton, James Clerk Maxwell.

 

[Cypress]

if the universe rational how did it start?

Glad you are starting to see the universe can only be caused by the rational or the irrational.

There isn't a third choice.

Provisionally, the most logical explanation to me is that since time, space, and rational organization began at some finite origin point in the distant past, the cause must have been timeless, spaceless, eternal, and rational.

I haven't seen any good logic on this thread deducing that time, space, and rational organization can be caused by the irrational and inanimate.

 

[Jerry Mathers]

Then you reject Albert Einstein, Isaac Newton, James Clerk Maxwell.

did any form of energy precede the universe itself?

 

[Cypress]

did any form of energy precede the universe itself?

Not according to current knowledge.
Mathematical theorem, sound science, and deductive logic all point to the conclusion that time, space, energy, and matter all run up against a spacetime boundary in the distant past, meaning there was a beginning or origin point to it all.

 

[Jerry Mathers]

Not according to current knowledge.
Mathematical theorem, sound science, and deductive logic all point to the conclusion that time, space, energy, and matter all run up against a spacetime boundary in the distant past, meaning there was a beginning or origin point to it all.

so how could a superheated Planck state exist to explode into a universe?

its chicken and egg.

I'm hungry now.

 

[Cypress]

Nothing in the universe is actually random with enough information, but that's beside the point.

Thanks for agreeing with me that the physical reality and universe we live in is lawful and organized, and it is not random, chaotic, disorganized.

It's interesting that you don't think the fact we live in a rational and organized universe means something. Einstein definitely thought it meant something.

The point is that you wouldn't say, based on the ability to predict ahead of time or explaining after the fact, that the movement of the balls was the result of a conscious being orchestrating their movement. The balls are going to do what they're going to do once they're dumped out of the bucket. There's no higher power or conscious being determining their movement.

Ridiculous. Nobody said, insinuated, or implied they a sky wizard is actively orchestrating the moment of baseballs, hockey pucks, or arrows.

I think the most logical explanation is that the mathematical laws and rational organization of the universe were infused into fabric of the cosmos over 13 billion years by some type of underlying rational agency.

After two thousand posts you have never made the case that the rational and lawful can be caused by the irrational and inanimate.

 

[Hume]

Thanks for agreeing with me that the physical reality and universe we live in is lawful and organized, and it is not random, chaotic, disorganized.

Lawful because God commanded it? Or lawful because we can observe patterns.

 

[Into the Night]

Nope. Big Bang is a theory of how the universe started to expand. It does not take us all the way back to time = zero, because our physics breaks down when you get back to a fraction of a microsecond.

There is no theory of what happened at time =zero, nor what caused the universe at exactly time = zero, and there never will be because it's untestable.

The Universe has no known boundary. What is 'expanding'?
No 'cause' could exist to initiate a 'Big Bang', since the Universe doesn't exist yet!

How do you know the Universe has an origin?

 

[Cypress]

so how could a superheated Planck state exist to explode into a universe?

If our current mathematical understanding is correct, even the ultra dense Planck state (or it's predecessors) runs up against a spacetime boundary in the past, aka it didn't exist forever.

Some first cause caused the ultra dense Planck state, the inflation field that expanded it, and the rational mathematical laws of physics to freeze out and take form.

One line of inferential logic is that this rational and lawful evolution of space and time was caused by timeless, spaceless, eternal, rational agency.

Your idea is that it's more logical to believe the rational and lawful was caused by the irrational and inanimate.

 

[Into the Night]

ftfy
Maybe to someone who never set one foot in a physics or cosmology class.

The universe doesn't care if it doesn't make sense to you. The only way to really even start to nominally understand it is to speak it's language: math, logic, physics.

Magick Word.

You are not describing physics or cosmology.
The Universe is not sentient.
The Universe is not a language.
Man created math.
Man created logic.
Man created physics.

 

[Cypress]

How do you know the Universe has an origin?

Established mathematical theorem, sound science, and logical inference.

 

[Hume]

Established mathematical theorem, sound science, and logical inference.

None which exists.

 

[Into the Night]

The smallest size your chimpanzee

What chimpanzee??

can physically perceive is a tenth of a millimeter, at best.

You can't read a chimp's mind. Omniscience fallacy.

The smallest interval of time your chimpanzee brain can even grasp is a tenth of a second, at best.

The limitations your chimpanzee brain place on your experience of space and time do not apply to the rest of the universe.

The big bang describes the expansion and evolution of an ultra hot and ultra dense micro-state of reality.

Magick Words (reality, ultra hot, ultra dense, evolution, expansion, space, time).
Buzzword fallaies.

Try English. It works better.

 

[Cypress]

Lawful because God commanded it? Or lawful because we can observe patterns.

The universe was lawful billions of years before humans existed, so things like the gravitational field, Coulombs Law, and the Higgs field did not depend on humans measuring/observing them. The mathematical inverse square relationship of the gravitational field will still be real billions of years after humans are gone.

 

[Hume]

The universe was lawful billions of years before humans existed, so things like the gravitational field, Coulombs Law, and the Higgs field did not depend on humans measuring them.

So, just patterns.

 

[Into the Night]

Thanks for agreeing with me that the physical reality and universe we live in is lawful and organized, and it is not random, chaotic, disorganized.

Magick Words (reality, universe, lawful, organized). Buzzword fallacies.
The Universe is unorganized.

It's interesting that you don't think the fact we live in a rational and organized universe means something. Einstein definitely thought it meant something.

Magick Words (fact, rational, organized, universe, meaning, Einstein).
Buzzword fallacies.
The Universe is unorganized.

Ridiculous. Nobody said, insinuated, or implied they a sky wizard is actively orchestrating the moment of baseballs, hockey pucks, or arrows.

ZenMode did.

I think the most logical explanation is that the mathematical laws and rational organization of the universe were infused into fabric of the cosmos over 13 billion years by some type of underlying rational agency.

Magick Words (logic, mathematical laws, rational, organization, infuse, fabric, cosmos, 13 billion years, underlying rational agency). Buzzword fallacies. Try English.
There is no 'mathematical laws of the Universe'.
The Universe is unorganized.

After two thousand posts you have never made the case that the rational and lawful can be caused by the irrational and inanimate.

Magick Words (rational, lawful, irrational, inanimate).
Try English. It works better.

The Universe is unorganized.
The Universe has no known boundaries.
How do you know the Universe has was created?