A Defense of a Liberal Arts Education

Jarod said:
Sure, and I feel like STEM and business are well taught around here in schools, but to me, it does not give the specific life skills I was referring to. The liberal arts take a beating, I was reading about the philosophy on how history considered the liberal arts and how they came about, its just not considered as valuable as it once war. It is not calculated specifically toward the ability to make money or be productive, although Id argue it helps in those areas. The idea of being a renaissance man is considered much less valuable than in the past. I believe it deserves a second look. Open thinking, critical reading, ongoing desire for education that have been important to me and making my life so much more than it could have been.

I do not think that learning for learnings sake is a bad thing, and I still agree that learning for a specific goal, like the ability to have a career has its own value.

Law School is not a Liberal Arts education, yet still it mostly is not an education in the specifics of the law; more about learning the thinking skills a lawyer needs. One does not come out of law knowing how to practice law, like an accountant comes out of school knowing accounting standards.
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I'm guessing cost has played a role. As elite schools hit $100K/yr it's understandable from an economic perspective more people might view STEM and business degrees as a higher ROI than liberal arts.

That doesn't necessarily mean people think less of a liberal arts degree per se, rather economic factors drive the decision.
 
Jarod said:
I think Universities are leaving the idea of being learning institutions, thinking institutions, and are embracing the idea that their mission is to produce profitable people, people who are financially valuable. This is a failure in my book.

One can learn to build bridges in an engineering class, the math and mechanics of it, without being well educated about the world. So the failure of our higher education, in my opinion is the abandonment of the value of the liberal arts, the art of bridge building, the history of bridge building, the economics of bridge building, the social impact of bridge building...

Being an expert at the Engineering of Bridges does not make you an 'educated' person, but it is a skill that can make you a lot of money.
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I'd push back on this idea that engineering degrees don't necessarily make someone educated and understand the world, where a liberal arts degree does. That's something that can sound reasonable in theory I suppose but a little too neat for real life.
 
Jarod said:
Correct, but Higher education is changing from giving people an understanding of the world they have been born into as we understand it today, to giving people a specific skill that they can make money with.

I did not go to school to become valuable to an employer, I went to school because to me Education is enlightenment as to what I was born into. It helps answer the big questions, or at least understand them. Even Law School was about understanding our society's structure and how we organize it, not about, how to write a will for your neighbor.
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Your post reminded me of this story. One of my good buddies went to CPS (College Prep School) in Oakland. It's an elite private school, one of the best in the country. Something like 15% of his class went to Ivies.

My buddy is a very successful real estate developer and he was telling me about his class reunion. He said a number of them were working on their 5th degrees and were like professional students. He said they looked at him like this total outsider, "you work and make money?"

Of course there was a level of exaggeration there but still true at its core. And these folks would be what you're describing you like.
 
cawacko said:
Your post reminded me of this story. One of my good buddies went to CPS (College Prep School) in Oakland. It's an elite private school, one of the best in the country. Something like 15% of his class went to Ivies.

My buddy is a very successful real estate developer and he was telling me about his class reunion. He said a number of them were working on their 5th degrees and were like professional students. He said they looked at him like this total outsider, "you work and make money?"

Of course there was a level of exaggeration there but still true at its core. And these folks would be what you're describing you like.
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Making money is important for most of us. However it is better if it’s not your main focus. I’ve always lived by the adage, do what you love, the money will follow.

I didn’t inherit money, and paid for my own law school with student loans. I had to make money, but I didn’t make it the soul focus of my education. I know some people don’t have that privilege, but I believe if you can swing it, it’s better.

There is great beauty in education and if it were an American priority it could be much easier.
 
Jarod said:
Making money is important for most of us. However it is better if it’s not your main focus. I’ve always lived by the adage, do what you love, the money will follow.

I didn’t inherit money, and paid for my own law school with student loans. I had to make money, but I didn’t make it the soul focus of my education. I know some people don’t have that privilege, but I believe if you can swing it, it’s better.

There is great beauty in education and if it were an American priority it could be much easier.
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you're little advocacy here is getting young people in trouble with debt and a useless degree.

its a different time now, old person. your boomer thoughts are retarded in the context of $currentDate.
 
Jarod said:
Making money is important for most of us. However it is better if it’s not your main focus. I’ve always lived by the adage, do what you love, the money will follow.

I didn’t inherit money, and paid for my own law school with student loans. I had to make money, but I didn’t make it the soul focus of my education. I know some people don’t have that privilege, but I believe if you can swing it, it’s better.

There is great beauty in education and if it were an American priority it could be much easier.
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To be clear I’m not attacking you here, but just stating this within context of the conversation it seems like you’re going back-and-forth between education as a whole and then liberal arts specifically.

You mentioned engineers previously, and not necessarily being educated, it made me think of my father-in-law. He got a masters and electrical engineering and he worked for decades at Lockheed Martin working on missiles. They were solidly middle class
but far from upper middle class. He did not make a lot of money.

He loves NASA and space and the guy can fix anything, but he is not an intellectual and he is not going to sit around discussing Plato‘s allegory of the cave. If that makes him not educated, then so be it.

I think education is one of the most important things a person can have and I have zero issue with those who choose to pursue a liberal arts education. But I personally don’t think happiness is predicated upon a liberal arts education or the concept of one being considered educated.
 
cawacko said:
To be clear I’m not attacking you here, but just stating this within context of the conversation it seems like you’re going back-and-forth between education as a whole and then liberal arts specifically.

You mentioned engineers previously, and not necessarily being educated, it made me think of my father-in-law. He got a masters and electrical engineering and he worked for decades at Lockheed Martin working on missiles. They were solidly middle class
but far from upper middle class. He did not make a lot of money.

He loves NASA and space and the guy can fix anything, but he is not an intellectual and he is not going to sit around discussing Plato‘s allegory of the cave. If that makes him not educated, then so be it.

I think education is one of the most important things a person can have and I have zero issue with those who choose to pursue a liberal arts education. But I personally don’t think happiness is predicated upon a liberal arts education or the concept of one being considered educated.
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how about a couple hundred k in debt and no job options afterward?

you're perpetuating the scam against america's youth.
 
Yakuda said:
We have a supreme court justice that cant tell us what a woman is. Education is extremely important but kids today are not being educated. They arent being taught HOW to think they are being WHAT to think. "Is it going to be on the test?" is all you need to know about education in America.
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Heck a lot of them can't even make change or tell time on a clock that has hands on it.
 
cawacko said:
To be clear I’m not attacking you here, but just stating this within context of the conversation it seems like you’re going back-and-forth between education as a whole and then liberal arts specifically.

You mentioned engineers previously, and not necessarily being educated, it made me think of my father-in-law. He got a masters and electrical engineering and he worked for decades at Lockheed Martin working on missiles. They were solidly middle class
but far from upper middle class. He did not make a lot of money.

He loves NASA and space and the guy can fix anything, but he is not an intellectual and he is not going to sit around discussing Plato‘s allegory of the cave. If that makes him not educated, then so be it.

I think education is one of the most important things a person can have and I have zero issue with those who choose to pursue a liberal arts education. But I personally don’t think happiness is predicated upon a liberal arts education or the concept of one being considered educated.
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I don't feel attacked at all, but thanks for the preference.

I am not educated in mathematics or engineering, so I do not speak from experience but anyone with a Masters Degree Id consider educated. Liberal Arts is what I know. My grandfather was a civil engineer, did not make any real money, but he had family money. He was a well educated man. Somewhere he got the classics. I agree happyness is not predicated upon a liberal arts education, but I am very thankful for mine.

My grandfather did not get a High School Diploma because he left early for basic training to fight in the Army. The war ended before he completed the training and was accepted to Auburn without a High School Diploma due to the circumstances. After four years, they called him in and acknowledged he had passed the required courses, bu they were concerned that he did not know how to spell, they were considering holding back his degree. I do not know if this was his BA or his Masters, but he objected that they did not have a spelling class and despite not being able to spell he passed the required classes, so they gave him the degree.

He was the head of the Highway Department for the State of Alabama for over 20 years. Built many bridges that are still standing now, including the historically known Edmund Pettus Bridge. He was successful in his career, but that was his career, not who he was, it did not define him. In the end he spent more than he made.

Sorry, I am rambling, but my point is that I believe some Liberal Arts are helpful for success in our culture and any knowledge helps.

I guess it is off topic, but tell me about where you came from, how were your parents and grandparents educated?
 
Jerry Mathers said:
you're little advocacy here is getting young people in trouble with debt and a useless degree.

its a different time now, old person. your boomer thoughts are retarded in the context of $currentDate.
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Maybe , it seems to have devolved into a carrot and stick setup, the only way to get rich is to make those richer than you even more richer.
 
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