Nagasaki anniversary.

[T. A. Gardner]

This has zero relevance to my post. Someone said "if the U.S. focused on killing civilians, they would've bombed Tokyo."

The fact is, we absolutely did. Repeatedly.

They probably talk about Hiroshima and Nagasaki a lot because the deaths from those 2 bombs DWARFED the deaths from thousands of bombs dropped on Tokyo. And, people falsely claim the Japanese surrendered primarily because of the atomic bombs.

This is untrue. Hiroshima deaths were about 50 to 60K, Nagasaki about 40 to 50K. Tokyo deaths were at least 120K from a conventional fire bombing. The atomic bombings were one of the final straws that broke the camel's back in forcing Japan to surrender. It wasn't that alone, no one cause was. The nuclear bombings added to the stacking evidence for Japan surrender was the only viable option left.

 

[moon]

All I did was point out facts and reality. What's wrong with that?

No- you lied and attempted to misinform. Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Tokyo were civilian population centers.

 

[Jerome]

This is untrue. Hiroshima deaths were about 50 to 60K, Nagasaki about 40 to 50K.

Where do you fucking liars and idiots get your info???

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomi...er the next two to,occurred on the first day.

Over the next two to four months, the effects of the atomic bombings killed between 90,000 and 146,000 people in Hiroshima and 39,000 and 80,000 people in Nagasaki; roughly half occurred on the first day.

All told, the 2 bombs killed between 129,000 on the low end, and 230,000 on the high end.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

They wanted Japan to see what it would do to a pristine city.

Not quite. The USAAF had reserved 6 cities in Japan specifically for nuclear bombing. They wanted to see what the bomb would do to an untouched target for accurate damage assessment. That was why both Hiroshima and Nagasaki hadn't been bombed. One negative of this for the Japanese was these untouched cities became magnets for many homeless Japanese fleeing from cities that had been conventionally bombed into ruins so the population of them swelled meaning casualties from the nuclear attacks would be greater.

 

[moon]

The nuclear bombings added to the stacking evidence for Japan surrender was the only viable option left.

Mass murder is only a ' viable option ' to the insane. Seek professional counselling.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Where do you fucking liars and idiots get your info???

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomi...er the next two to,occurred on the first day.



All told, the 2 bombs killed between 129,000 on the low end, and 230,000 on the high end.

Not from a mediocre source like Wiki... That's for sure.

 

[moon]

Not from a mediocre source like Wiki... That's for sure.

Wiki is monitored and updated by many experts. It is not an ' opinion' publication.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Mass murder is only a ' viable option ' to the insane. Seek professional counselling.

That would be the Left with persons like Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, the Castro's, the Kim Jong family, etc. Japan brought the war on themselves by attacking the US. The US responded with military action against Japan. It was Japan's choice to continue to fight when it was obvious they'd lost and weren't going to regain the initiative to win.

Hiroshima for example was the headquarters of the Japanese 2nd Army and there were two divisions of infantry stationed in and around the city. Hiroshima was a major naval base and had airfields, coast defenses, and other military installations scattered about it. Japanese military production and industry was scattered throughout the city. It was a legitimate military target.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Wiki is monitored and updated by many experts. It is not an ' opinion' publication.

It is updated by anyone who wants to contribute. It may or may not be accurate. On things military it is definitely hit and miss.

 

[Anvil Kasseri]

Not quite. The USAAF had reserved 6 cities in Japan specifically for nuclear bombing. They wanted to see what the bomb would do to an untouched target for accurate damage assessment. That was why both Hiroshima and Nagasaki hadn't been bombed. One negative of this for the Japanese was these untouched cities became magnets for many homeless Japanese fleeing from cities that had been conventionally bombed into ruins so the population of them swelled meaning casualties from the nuclear attacks would be greater.

The main point of reserving the cities was to ensure that Japan would be able to understand the damage and be shocked by it.

 

[Anvil Kasseri]

Were you able to see what they did to Tokyo?

I am well aware of what our bombers did at Tokyo.

Can you see deaths and destruction were no different?

There was a bit of a difference.

Note:
http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2014/09/22/tokyo-hiroshima/

Japan had no airforce. We could bomb at will and we did. Yes, that claim was made so we did not look so bad for using atomic bombs.

The claim is made because it is the truth.

We are still the only country that used them and we did it twice. I am not proud of that.

There is no shame in attacking military targets.

They wanted scientists to be able to evaluate the bomb.

Yes. And rightly so. But that does not change the reality that the atomic bombs were dropped to try to force Japan to surrender.

Japan was done.

Then they should have surrendered. We'd have been happy to accept their surrender at any time.

Most military experts and generals said so. https://www.carnegiecouncil.org/education/008/expertclips/010

Ike was the only one who said so before the A-bombs were used, and Ike's opposition was feeble to the point of insignificance.

Ike only expressed his views to a single person (Stimson).

When Stimson reacted by calling him an idiot, Ike decided to keep quiet and not tell anyone else.

Even if Ike had managed to somehow be convincing, he was too late anyway. Stimson had sent the final orders to drop the A-bombs out to the military and then departed the Potsdam conference on July 25. When Ike voiced his opposition in Frankfort on July 27 it was just hours before Stimson departed Europe for home. Truman was still at sea aboard the Augusta when Hiroshima was bombed, and had not been in the same room with Stimson since July 25.

 

[Anvil Kasseri]

No- you lied and attempted to misinform. Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Tokyo were civilian population centers.

The historians say that you are the liar.

Hiroshima was a huge military base with tens of thousands of Japanese soldiers awaiting deployment to resist our invasion of Kyushu.

Hiroshima was also the military headquarters in charge of repelling our invasion of Kyushu.

Kokura Arsenal (the intended target of the second A-bomb) was a massive (4100 feet by 2000 feet) machine gun factory. It was one of Japan's main sources of light machine guns, heavy machine guns, and 20mm anti-aircraft machine guns, as well as ammo for all of those machine guns.

The Mitsubishi Steel and Arms Works (destroyed by the second A-bomb) produced steel for Japan's war industry and used some of that steel to produce 100 naval torpedoes a month.

The Mitsubishi-Urakami Ordnance Plant (destroyed by the second A-bomb) produced 400 aerial torpedoes a month.

Pearl Harbor had been thought immune to air-dropped torpedoes because the harbor was so shallow that an air-dropped torpedo would hit bottom and embed in the mud. Aside from Tokyo Bay, Pearl Harbor was the only place in the world with such natural defenses against air-dropped torpedoes. Japan had to develop special torpedo technology designed just for Pearl Harbor in order to attack us. The Mitsubishi-Urakami Ordnance Plant was the place that designed and built those torpedoes.

Here's a picture of the Mitsubishi Urakami Ordnance Plant after the A-bomb:
https://www.osti.gov/opennet/manhattan-project-history/images/mitsubishi_image.htm

There was a ton of war industry in Tokyo as well.

Mass murder is only a ' viable option ' to the insane. Seek professional counselling.

Attacks on military targets are not murder.

 

[Jack]

That's correct. War is illegal under international law.

Deny it, please monkey, so that I can use your arrogant ignorance to educate others.

Economic Sanctions on Iran is legal though. Check.
And, if Iran went to 'War' over the deliberate economic strangulation of the Iranian People, they would be GUILTY.

Thanks. Glad you've cleared that up.

 

[Jack]

I honestly can't tell if you're being ironic, but it's a very well known fact that the Americans firebombed Tokyo, killing tens of thousands.

 

[Jerome]

Not from a mediocre source like Wiki... That's for sure.

Dude, that's a fucking lame-ass excuse for your laziness. Wiki has notes for reference, and my numbers are generally accepted truth. If you want to argue bullshit numbers, you need a source, not me.

 

[Jerome]

Once again, your point is not well made. Yes, we bombed Dresden, too.

We killed FAR more Japanese.

 

[Jack]

They wanted to see what it would do to a pristine city. They skipped several cities for that reason. It was a science experiment. Data gathering that just happened to be people, men women and children, and doggies, kitties, snakes and rats. They already firebombed the shit out of Tokyo. It would not have looked much different after the bomb.

1. They didn't drop an Atomic Bomb on Tokyo.
2. Pearl Harbor.
3. Don't fuck with America.

 

[Jack]

Once again, your point is not well made. Yes, we bombed Dresden, too.

We killed FAR more Japanese.

Yeah. It's called a 'War', mother fucker.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Dude, that's a fucking lame-ass excuse for your laziness. Wiki has notes for reference, and my numbers are generally accepted truth. If you want to argue bullshit numbers, you need a source, not me.

My point was that the number of deaths at Nagasaki and Hiroshima did not dwarf those from things like the fire bombing of Tokyo, which was the original point of this part of the thread. Your numbers show that as clearly as mine do. Nor should the nuking of two cities be compared to the fire bombing of one. Overall, Japanese deaths from conventional bombing dwarf those from the two nuclear attacks.

 

[Jerome]

Yeah. It's called a 'War', mother fucker.

And the nature of war took a nasty turn when Curtis LeMay got involved. He, himself, said he'd be hanged for war crimes if the U.S. lost the war.