Archaeology of the New Testament

[Into the Night]

Lawful because God commanded it? Or lawful because we can observe patterns.

There is no 'lawful Universe'.
The Universe is unorganized.

 

[Into the Night]

If our current mathematical understanding is correct, even the ultra dense Planck state (or it's predecessors) runs up against a spacetime boundary in the past, aka it didn't exist forever.

You are denying mathematics.
Magick Word (ultra dense Planck state, spacetime boundary, forever).
Try English. Buzzword fallacies.

Some first cause caused the ultra dense Planck state, the inflation field that expanded it, and the rational mathematical laws of physics to freeze out and take form.

Magick Words (ultra dense Planck state, inflation field, expansion, rational, physics, freeze out, take form). Buzzword fallacies. Try English. It works better.

No 'cause' is possible. The Universe wouldn't have existed yet!

What makes you think the Universe has an origin?

One line of inferential logic is that this rational and lawful evolution of space and time was caused by timeless, spaceless, eternal, rational agency.

Magick Words( inferential logic, rational, lawful, evolution, space and time, timeless, spaceless, eternal, rational agency). Buzzword fallacies.
The Universe is unorganized.

Your idea is that it's more logical to believe the rational and lawful was caused by the irrational and inanimate.

Magick Words (logical, rational, lawful, irrational, inanimate). Buzzword fallacies.
Try English. It works better.

 

[Into the Night]

Established mathematical theorem, sound science, and logical inference.

Magick Words (established mathematical theorem, science, logic).
Magick words aren't going to cut it.

How do you know the Universe has an origin?

 

[Into the Night]

The universe was lawful billions of years before humans existed, so things like the gravitational field, Coulombs Law, and the Higgs field did not depend on humans measuring/observing them. The mathematical inverse square relationship of the gravitational field will still be real billions of years after humans are gone.

Magick Words (lawful, billions of years, gravitational field, Coulombs Law, Higgs field, mathematical inverse square relationship). Try English. Buzzwords are useless.

The Universe is unorganized. There is no 'law'.
Man created Coulomb's Law.
Man created the Higgs field model.
Man created the gravitational field model.
Man created all of our measuring systems.
Observation is not a system.

The Universe is unorganized. There is no 'law of the Universe'.

 

[Into the Night]

Nope. "Nothingness" does not have density, temperature, or spatial size.
'Nothingness' literally has nothing.

What 'densitiy'?
What 'temperature'?
What 'spatial size'?

 

[Cypress]

So, just patterns.

Fundamental universal relationships in nature expressed through the logic of mathematics.

Anyone who didn't just get an education based on rote memorization, and really thinks about this is struck by the rational intelligibility and lawful organization of the universe.

Einstein definitely thought it was extraordinary, and pointed to something marvelous.

 

[Hume]

There is no 'lawful Universe'.
The Universe is unorganized.

Your brain is unorganized.

 

[Hume]

Fundamental universal relationships in nature expressed through the logic of mathematics.

Anyone who didn't just get an education based on rote memorization, and really thinks about this is struck by the rational intelligibility and lawful organization of the universe.

Einstein definitely thought it was extraordinary, and pointed to something marvelous.

Who cares what Einstein thought about philosophy.

 

[Jerry Mathers]

If our current mathematical understanding is correct, even the ultra dense Planck state (or it's predecessors) runs up against a spacetime boundary in the past, aka it didn't exist forever.

Some first cause caused the ultra dense Planck state, the inflation field that expanded it, and the rational mathematical laws of physics to freeze out and take form.

One line of inferential logic is that this rational and lawful evolution of space and time was caused by timeless, spaceless, eternal, rational agency.

Your idea is that it's more logical to believe the rational and lawful was caused by the irrational and inanimate.

utter horseshit.

you're a fool.

 

[ZenMode]

Thanks for agreeing with me that the physical reality and universe we live in is lawful and organized, and it is not random, chaotic, disorganized.

The universe is anything but organized. It's full of random crap, flying around and slamming into each other. It's full of stars, all of which will event burn out, including the star that allows life on Earth. The moon is slowly getting further and further from the Earth which means, if we aren't destroyed by the sun dying out, most life will end when the moon escapes its orbit around Earth.

That says nothing about the earthquake and tsunami causing faults and volcanoes that your "creator" added into the mix.

It's interesting that you don't think the fact we live in a rational and organized universe means something. Einstein definitely thought it meant something.

Like I've said several times, with enough information, a properly educated person could predict every bounce of a bucket of tennis balls. That doesn't mean there's a magical hand orchestrating the movement of the balls, it just means that humans, after the fact, have come to understand math and physics.

Ridiculous. Nobody said, insinuated, or implied they a sky wizard is actively orchestrating the moment of baseballs, hockey pucks, or arrows.

No, but that's your argument for the universe. You claim that there has to be a creator because man was able to explain what's happening after the fact.

But, again, the universe is a mess, the Earth is full of flaws and the human body is anything but finely tuned.

I think the most logical explanation is that the mathematical laws and rational organization of the universe were infused into fabric of the cosmos over 13 billion years by some type of underlying rational agency.

Yes, that is what you think, but only because you've convinced yourself that a disorganized universe is organized and have been able to explain away the many flaws of Earth and man.

After two thousand posts you have never made the case that the rational and lawful can be caused by the irrational and inanimate.

Like I said, we can rationally and logically explain every movement of a bucket of dropped tennis balls AFTER THE FACT. That doesn't mean there was a higher power/sky daddy moving the tennis balls.

 

[Into the Night]

I don't agree that first cause is strictly a philosophical question, but I see no reason to debate that now.

He, like you, seems to think there is some kind of 'cause' to the origin of the Universe. No 'cause' can exist, since the Universe itself would not have existed.

What makes you think there is an origin of the Universe?

Religion makes very specific claims that directly conflict with what we know about physics and biology.

WRONG.
Science is completely atheistic. It does not care whether any god or gods exist or not.

Nope. I addressed it multiple times.

No. You CHANTED it multiple times. It's as inane as his chanting.

What you call a rational and lawful design based on mathematics is actually just writing equations to explain things after the fact.

This part is true, assuming the fact that the Universe has an origin is True.

What makes you think the Universe has an origin?

As I mentioned multiple times, I could drop a bucket of tennis balls off my roof and someone, with sufficient knowledge, could write an equation for every bound and movement of the balls. That doesn't mean the movement of the balls was the result of a creator's design.

It is the same equation for every ball.
It is the result of YOUR design.

• The Bible claims that god flooded the world. There's no evidence that ever happened

Attempted negative proof fallacy. Argument of ignorance fallacy.

• The Bible claims the earth is a few thousand years old. It's not.

The Bible never made any such claim.
The age of the Earth is unknown.

• The Bible claims that the first two modern humans were zapped into existence in one location on Earth. That is not the case.

Attempted negative proof fallacy. Argument of ignorance fallacy. Circular argument fallacy (fundamentalism).

• Several religions claim that the Earth is the center of the universe with the sun revolving around it.

The Earth is obviously not in the center of the Sun. I know of no religion that claims it is.

• The Bible makes claims about the human body's ability to function after being dead for 3 days. That's not possible.

Argument of ignorance fallacy. Attempted negative proof fallacy. Circular argument fallacy (fundamentalism).

• The Bible makes claims about the surface tension of water and claims it can support an adult male. It can't

Argument of ignorance fallacy. Attempted negative proof fallacy. Circular argument fallacy (fundamentalism).

Should I go on?

No. You have caused enough fallacies for now.

Meh. Ok.

Great. A lot of people have thought a lot of things throughout history. Doesn't mean they're right.

So? It doesn't mean you're right either!

Nope, but even if you were right, that doesn't mean the flaws disappear.

Attempted proof by contrivance.

I could have read the flaws in sky writing.

Did some pilot misspell something in the sky?

They're still flaws by a creator

Attempted proof by contrivance.

that YOU claim is so concerned about detail that it literally put rules into place to dictate how microscopic particles move.

Odd that a creator/god, with that level of detail, wouldn't have seen the many flaws in the design of humans.

The fact that I appreciate my ability to see also doesn't mean the human eye has a design flaw. The fact that I appreciate my ability to walk/move doesn't mean that the human spine and knees aren't flawed.

Void argument fallacy.

This is all just more misdirection.

Inversion fallacy.

It simply doesn't make sense that your creator/god would make the mistakes I mentioned.

Void argument fallacy. Attempted proof by contrivance.

 

[Into the Night]

The temperature at Planck density is at the upper theoretical limit of known physics, around 10^30 Kelvin from what I remember.

Magick Words (Planck density, upper theoretical limit, known physics). Buzzword fallacies.
No such limit. No such density.
Argument from randU fallacy.

 

[Jerry Mathers]

If our current mathematical understanding is correct, even the ultra dense Planck state (or it's predecessors) runs up against a spacetime boundary in the past, aka it didn't exist forever.

Some first cause caused the ultra dense Planck state, the inflation field that expanded it, and the rational mathematical laws of physics to freeze out and take form.

One line of inferential logic is that this rational and lawful evolution of space and time was caused by timeless, spaceless, eternal, rational agency.

Your idea is that it's more logical to believe the rational and lawful was caused by the irrational and inanimate.

did time exist before the universe?

 

[Hume]

did time exist before the universe?

Cypress is a theist. Impossible to engage with him rationally

 

[Jerry Mathers]

Lawful because God commanded it? Or lawful because we can observe patterns.

this is his purposeful use of vaguaries to imply shit then walk it back when called on it.

he's a fucking idiotic sophist with no truth in him.

 

[Into the Night]

The universe is anything but organized.

This part is true.

It's full of random crap, flying around and slamming into each other.

Most of it doesn't slam into anything.

It's full of stars, all of which will event burn out, including the star that allows life on Earth.

Colloquially true. Stars don't 'burn' in the usual sense, but they will all eventually run out of fuel. Some will just go dark. Others will switch to another kind of fuel that causes the star to bloat and consume the inner planets (the fate for our own Sun). Some will collapse into neutron stars or even a black hole.

The moon is slowly getting further and further from the Earth which means, if we aren't destroyed by the sun dying out, most life will end when the moon escapes its orbit around Earth.

Assuming the Sun lasts longer than this, the Moon will never leave orbit around Earth.
Instead, it will reach a point of equilibrium, and then cease moving further away from Earth.

At that point, the Moon will no synchronous with Earth's rotation (which is also slowing), leaving the Moon fixed in one position in the sky, and going through all of its phases for every rotation of the Earth.

Of course, as you say, the Sun will consume both the Earth and the Moon before that happens.

That says nothing about the earthquake and tsunami causing faults and volcanoes that your "creator" added into the mix.

Again, you ignore the Bible.
God did not create Earth in its present state. Man brought it to this present state.

Like I've said several times, with enough information, a properly educated person could predict every bounce of a bucket of tennis balls. That doesn't mean there's a magical hand orchestrating the movement of the balls, it just means that humans, after the fact, have come to understand math and physics.

All the balls will follow the same laws of physics. YOU decided where to drop them, and even how many balls in the bucket.

No, but that's your argument for the universe. You claim that there has to be a creator because man was able to explain what's happening after the fact.

This part is true.

But, again, the universe is a mess,

The Universe is not a mess. It is simply unorganized.

the Earth is full of flaws

Void argument fallacy.

and the human body is anything but finely tuned.

Void argument fallacy. Attempted proof by contrivance.

Yes, that is what you think, but only because you've convinced yourself that a disorganized universe is organized and have been able to explain away the many flaws of Earth and man.

Void argument fallacy.

Like I said, we can rationally and logically explain every movement of a bucket of dropped tennis balls AFTER THE FACT. That doesn't mean there was a higher power/sky daddy moving the tennis balls.

YOU are on the roof dropping tennis balls. YOU are the higher power dropping tennis balls.
Who is this 'sky daddy'?

 

[Into the Night]

Cypress is a theist. Impossible to engage with him rationally

So are you. Kettle fallacy.

 

[Cypress]

Lawful because God commanded it? Or lawful because we can observe patterns.

Do you believe the law of gravity operated billions of years before humans "observed" it?

 

[Hume]

So are you. Kettle fallacy.

Look you brain dead jerkoff, nothing I have ever posted was in favor of theism. You're a jerkoff hate troll.

 

[Hume]

Do you believe the law of gravity operated billions of years before humans "observed" it?

"Law" just means pattern.