Congratulations, you took freedom away…

Sawyerloggingon said:
And if that's so voters in those states can decide if that's the law they want to live under by voting for or against their state legislatures. Abortion laws are back in the hands of citizens as they should be.
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Please explain in detail how repealing a law that gave CHOICE (a basic cornerstone in freedom) justify's your last sentence?
 
Flash said:
But, it was not based on any constitutional provisions. Science is not the source of our law.
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Religion is not the source of our law. Which would you choose? Science or religion?

Laws against abortion have nothing to do with religion.
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:rofl2: :rofl: :laugh:

Abortion might be against the religious beliefs of anti-abortion people, but so are murder, theft, rape, assault, etc. But, it is not unconstitutional to prohibit those crimes because they are against both political and religious beliefs. The law itself must be aimed at religion to violate the establishment clause, the religious beliefs of the voters is irrelevant. You beliefs are 100% protected.
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Again, abortion is not murder. Nobody could explain how it's murder. The only argument they have is religious reason. Also they claim that life begins at conception. If that is so, why doesn't it start prior to that? I can move the goalposts and make convoluted reasons to argue it.
 
Taichiliberal said:
He doesn't know, it's one of his mental flatulences....they tend to build up under that pointy hood. But since no such law exists or is being proposed, old Sawyer will log off logic, dodge and/or spew all types of blather in hopes that no one will notice his blunder.
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I hope it was just a poor choice of words. :dunno:
 
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BidenPresident said:
Only about religion, as far as I can tell. Otherwise, it's arbitrary and random.
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A person's reasons for wanting to prohibit abortion have nothing to do with separation of church and state. The law itself would have to have some religious content to make it an establishment issue. A person's political beliefs can be based on anything he wants--even religion. That does not make the law religious.

If I favor abortion for religious reasons (God doesn't want unwanted children), does that make the law legalizing abortion a violation of the establishment clause?

A law can violate the establishment clause. A belief cannot.

Your religion might prohibit murder, but that does not make laws against murder only about religion, random, and arbitrary.
 
Jarod said:
It’s actually the right to Privacy, which was much larger than abortion. It was the right to make basic personal decisions that most directly affect who we as individuals are.

The conservatives could easily have left that right alone and carved Abortion out of it. Instead these guys took it away giving the government the power to once again regulate access to birth control, who we can marry and any other number of personal decisions.

They took power away from individuals and gave it to the government.
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Are you seeking an abortion?
 
Taichiliberal said:
It doesn't matter to our resident christo-fascist peanut gallery. Also, they have yet to logically explain how a law that allowed CHOICE was unconstitutional? I've read NOTHING in the SCOTUS decision to explain that little head scratcher.
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They say that the *right to privacy* was a bad argument. I disagree and don't see how the govt. can limit privacy to papers or whatnot. I also cannot imagine how the govt. is saying in effect that people have no bodily autonomy. Their argument seems to be that govt. intrusion into its citizens private affairs is perfectly legal.
 
Flash said:
A person's reasons for wanting to prohibit abortion have nothing to do with separation of church and state. The law itself would have to have some religious content to make it an establishment issue. A person's political beliefs can be based on anything he wants--even religion. That does not make the law religious.

If I favor abortion for religious reasons (God doesn't want unwanted children), does that make the law legalizing abortion a violation of the establishment clause?

A law can violate the establishment clause. A belief cannot.

Your religion might prohibit murder, but that does not make laws against murder only about religion, random, and arbitrary.
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The Bible allows slavery. It might allow slavery, still doesn't make laws allowing slavery only about religion.
 
AProudLefty said:
Religion is not the source of our law. Which would you choose? Science or religion?
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There is nothing religious about a law against abortion. The law prohibits abortion after a specified period of time--15 weeks in the Dobbs case. That makes the action illegal just like theft, rape, sex with a minor, or child pornography is illegal. Whether religion is a factor in wanting those things to be illegal is irrelevant from a constitutional perspective.

11% of atheists oppose abortion. Is that religious?

AProudLefty said:
Again, abortion is not murder. Nobody could explain how it's murder. The only argument they have is religious reason. Also they claim that life begins at conception. If that is so, why doesn't it start prior to that? I can move the goalposts and make convoluted reasons to argue it.
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I did not say abortion is murder. I used murder as an example of a criminal law that most religions also oppose (use theft, instead).

But murder is what the criminal law says it is. A murder statute could be written to include abortion if a state chose to do so.

Again, it doesn't matter if my political beliefs are based on my religion. The establishment clause is based on the law itself, not my beliefs. But not all anti-abortion people say life begins at conception. Some state laws against abortion make it illegal after 6 up until 15 weeks. Atheists who oppose abortion don't base it on religion.
 
AProudLefty said:
The Bible allows slavery. It might allow slavery, still doesn't make laws allowing slavery only about religion.
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Agreed, so if slavery is against your personal religious beliefs that does not make laws against slavery based only on religion.

The courts have never ruled (or had a case?) that laws against abortion violate the establishment clause. There is nothing in those laws referring to religion or which violate the neutrality of religion. Claiming that some (all) people which favor that law do so for religious reasons has no constitutional bearing.
 
Flash said:
There is nothing religious about a law against abortion. The law prohibits abortion after a specified period of time--15 weeks in the Dobbs case. That makes the action illegal just like theft, rape, sex with a minor, or child pornography is illegal. Whether religion is a factor in wanting those things to be illegal is irrelevant from a constitutional perspective.
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The reasoning behind the laws is what is important, not the laws themselves. The laws were created based on different kinds of reasoning.

11% of atheists oppose abortion. Is that religious?
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I don't know their reasoning.

I did not say abortion is murder. I used murder as an example of a criminal law that most religions also oppose (use theft, instead).
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THEY say it is murder that should be punishable up to life in prison. That law is already in place in some states.

But murder is what the criminal law says it is. A murder statute could be written to include abortion if a state chose to do so.
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Yes it could. They would have to be prepared for the influx of doctors and pregnant women in prisons and they'd have to pay for it.

Again, it doesn't matter if my political beliefs are based on my religion. The establishment clause is based on the law itself, not my beliefs. But not all anti-abortion people say life begins at conception. Some state laws against abortion make it illegal after 6 up until 15 weeks. Atheists who oppose abortion don't base it on religion.
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It does matter what the reasoning is for those laws. You are basically saying that it doesn't matter the reasoning for Jim Crow laws. Law is law and should be left to the states.
 
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